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rickyss10 Wed Dec 16, 2015 09:04am

Wrong Starter in Book
 
1st time had this happen to me.

About 10 seconds after tip team B has ball to inbound on endline. Scorer's table blows horn and calls me over to let me know team A had a wrong starter in the book. I explain situation to both coaches and charge team A with an indirect (admin) T. Team B shoots two throws and we continue play at POI. Wrong numbered starter stays in game and I also let coach A keep his box since it was an admin T.

Handled correctly?? Any input.

deecee Wed Dec 16, 2015 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyss10 (Post 973091)
1st time had this happen to me.

About 10 seconds after tip team B has ball to inbound on endline. Scorer's table blows horn and calls me over to let me know team A had a wrong starter in the book. I explain situation to both coaches and charge team A with an indirect (admin) T. Team B shoots two throws and we continue play at POI. Wrong numbered starter stays in game and I also let coach A keep his box since it was an admin T.

Handled correctly?? Any input.

No. This has to be addressed before the ball becomes live. Coach can put in the correct starter and avoid the T or take the T and change the starter. Once live no T.

Then in HS T's are NOT POI. Ball goes to the offended team opposite table.

SEE Sit 3.2.2

Raymond Wed Dec 16, 2015 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyss10 (Post 973091)
1st time had this happen to me.

About 10 seconds after tip team B has ball to inbound on endline. Scorer's table blows horn and calls me over to let me know team A had a wrong starter in the book. I explain situation to both coaches and charge team A with an indirect (admin) T. Team B shoots two throws and we continue play at POI. Wrong numbered starter stays in game and I also let coach A keep his box since it was an admin T.

Handled correctly?? Any input.

Was it the wrong starter marked in the book, or a player with an incorrect number that got changed?

Makes a difference as to whether or not a T should be assessed.

rickyss10 Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:14am

Found my answer in previous threads.

Thanks for the help.

frezer11 Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:48am

Wrong starter should almost never be a T, especially at lower levels (not sure what level yours was) because once its been thrown up, its too late to penalize. The scorer has to be pretty quick on their feet to note that all 10 players on the court after the huddles break but before the ball is tipped are the same 10 marked in the book. While less likely, its actually easier in varsity games, as most of the time starters are announced, and the scorer could find out then.

BigCat Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 973155)
Wrong starter should almost never be a T, especially at lower levels (not sure what level yours was) because once its been thrown up, its too late to penalize. The scorer has to be pretty quick on their feet to note that all 10 players on the court after the huddles break but before the ball is tipped are the same 10 marked in the book. While less likely, its actually easier in varsity games, as most of the time starters are announced, and the scorer could find out then.

See Also 3.2.2e. If the scorer does recognize it before the ball becomes live we are to notify coach and give him opportunity to put the right player on the floor.

frezer11 Wed Dec 16, 2015 05:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 973177)
See Also 3.2.2e. If the scorer does recognize it before the ball becomes live we are to notify coach and give him opportunity to put the right player on the floor.

Oh, that's right, forgot about that provision. Even less of a chance of a T!!

BillyMac Wed Dec 16, 2015 08:47pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 973177)
See Also 3.2.2e. If the scorer does recognize it before the ball becomes live we are to notify coach and give him opportunity to put the right player on the floor.

3.2.2 SITUATION F: Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute
time frame prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening
jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team
A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first
quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team
A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game.
RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated
starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game
with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing
a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be
discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the
ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a;
10-1-2a Penalty)

BigCat Wed Dec 16, 2015 09:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 973232)
3.2.2 SITUATION F: Team A designates No. 32 as a starter by the 10-minute
time frame prior to the game. In (a), as the teams take the floor for the opening
jump ball, the scorer recognizes that No. 34 is on court instead of No. 32 for Team
A and notifies the officials. In (b), following about two minutes of play in the first
quarter, a time-out is called. The scorer notifies the officials that although Team
A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 started instead and is still in the game.
RULING: In (a), if Team A’s coach replaces No. 34 for the correct designated
starter, No. 32, no penalty is assessed. If Team A’s coach elects to start the game
with No. 34 instead of No. 32, a technical foul is assessed to Team A for changing
a designated starter. In (b), no penalty is assessed. The infraction had to be
discovered and penalized before the ball became live to start the game. Once the
ball became live, it was too late to penalize for this specific infraction. (3-2-2a;
10-1-2a Penalty)

We need to get you updated books. This is sit. E in the 15/16 books.

BillyMac Thu Dec 17, 2015 07:15am

I Have Always Depended On The Kindness Of Strangers (Blanche DuBois) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 973238)
We need to get you updated books.

The PDF casebook on my hard drive is from 2011-12. Any idea on how to get a newer version?

Rich Thu Dec 17, 2015 08:22am

Join the NFHS for $35. Full access to all NFHS publications via the Arbiter hub.

Smitty Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:54pm

For the first time in almost 30 years I had a scorer hit the horn as we were about to start the 4th quarter and inform me that one of the players on the floor to start the 4th quarter was not on the court at the end of the 3rd quarter. Just before he brought that to my attention, the coach of that team had told me he had a girl who was bleeding and he put someone else in the game for her. Which was the reason for the difference in players on the court. I was amazed that he even paid any attention to it.

Raymond Thu Dec 17, 2015 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 973308)
For the first time in almost 30 years I had a scorer hit the horn as we were about to start the 4th quarter and inform me that one of the players on the floor to start the 4th quarter was not on the court at the end of the 3rd quarter. Just before he brought that to my attention, the coach of that team had told me he had a girl who was bleeding and he put someone else in the game for her. Which was the reason for the difference in players on the court. I was amazed that he even paid any attention to it.

I don't even know why that rule exists. I've never seen an AC come over to the table between quarters to see who the opponent would be sending on to the court.

letemplay Thu Dec 17, 2015 04:10pm

No place in book
 
And how many officials (on court or at table) would remember who subbed in for who...which normally doesn't matter except at end of close game offense/defense substitutions. (Player that is subbed for and leaves game must sit a tick before returning.)

BillyMac Thu Dec 17, 2015 05:27pm

They Won't Take My Money ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 973259)
Join the NFHS for $35. Full access to all NFHS publications via the Arbiter hub.

I can't join. Connecticut is on list of states where individuals can't join the NFHS. Connecticut is all IAABO. We get our NFHS rulebook, and NFHS casebook, from IAABO, not from the NFHS. I used to join the NFHS as a "fake" volleyball official but now that Arbiter and the NFHS have joined forces, the NFHS knows that I'm not a volleyball official.


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