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-   -   First Fighting Ejection (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100394-first-fighting-ejection.html)

Geof Tue Nov 24, 2015 05:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky (Post 970673)
I don't have any issue ejecting both players.
I'm just wondering about the verbal one.

Say you have this. Player A1 blocks B1, then says something along the lines of get that out, or weak. whatever. Something that rises to the level where you give the player a T. B1 gets angry because of the taunt and hits A1. So you are going to eject both players here? That doesn't seem right to me at all. The technical was a fitting punishment. A1 couldn't have known that it would lead to a punch.

Or this one which happened to me in a game. Two players on the ground after a loose ball. One is on top, doing that slowly getting off the other. Being a jerk about it. The player on the ground pushes him off. Not in an aggressive way, just a regular push. Completely justified in my opinion, and my partner's who calls a T on the player who was being the instigator by taking his time getting off the other. His coach has no problem with the T and chastises the player. I guess we could have given a double T here. But say the instigator player with the T then hits the player who was on the bottom. Are we really going to eject both players? No one thought the player who pushed the other off should get a T. It would seem absurd if that could be considered a start of a fight thus both should be ejected.
I agree with you. And these are the type of situations that I'm talking about. My issue with the way the rule is worded is that in both of these situations, you instigated a fight, which results in ejection. Doesn't seem like fair adjudication.

Geof Tue Nov 24, 2015 05:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 970675)
In the first no, in the second yes.
Not true. Situation 4.18.2: A1 dunks over B1 and then taunts B1. B1 retaliates and punches A1.

RULING: Both A1 and B1 are charged with a flagrant technical foul for fighting and are disqualified. A1's action is defined as fighting when the taunting caused B1 to retaliate by fighting.

The taunting would be classified as fighting based purely on how B1 acted after the actions by A1.

Raymond Tue Nov 24, 2015 05:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof (Post 970667)
And I don't want to work with officials who can't discuss topics without being derisive.

No one is making excuses. We are discussing the the merits of the punishment.
You're the one talking about people not being robots as an excuse for pushing somebody. That deserves derision.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

WhistlesAndStripes Tue Nov 24, 2015 05:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutantducky (Post 970673)
Say you have this. Player A1 blocks B1, then says something along the lines of get that out, or weak. whatever. Something that rises to the level where you give the player a T. Nothing too bad like racial or loud swearing, but sending a message that sort of thing is inappropriate. B1 gets angry because of the taunt and hits A1. So you are going to eject both players here?
I actually have NO PROBLEM dumping both players in this situation. Yes, A1 has already received a T for his taunt, but the taunt is what led to the hit by B1. A1 took that risk when he opened his mouth to begin with.

Geof Tue Nov 24, 2015 06:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 970678)
You're the one talking about people not being robots as an excuse for pushing somebody. That deserves derision.
:rolleyes:

Adam Tue Nov 24, 2015 07:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refhoop (Post 970604)
"Sportsmanship is citizenship in the athletic arena"

Regardless of the laws/rules, we "the police" have to know and enforce them.
As police; its sometimes difficult to know when to be a "yeah-butt" or a "yeah but"
I'd argue that shoving can be a natural response: If someone falls on you, you catch an unintentional elbow to the face or some other accidental act by your opponent that draws blood or just really hurts... I'd say a player 13-50 may be unaware that they even shoved the other player when stricken with intense pain.
In the court of law - this is self-defense or at the least a primal instinct. I don't think we go tossing kids in these situations - especially if they are in obvious pain.
Lots of things are natural responses, but athletes and coaches should know better. If you're going to make this argument, then you should consider the contact incidental and just penalize the player who threw the fist.

You won't do it in my games, but have at it.

Adam Tue Nov 24, 2015 07:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof (Post 970624)
Ideally, yes. But people aren't robots.
They aren't animals, either.

deecee Tue Nov 24, 2015 07:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof (Post 970677)
Not true. Situation 4.18.2: A1 dunks over B1 and then taunts B1. B1 retaliates and punches A1.

RULING: Both A1 and B1 are charged with a flagrant technical foul for fighting and are disqualified. A1's action is defined as fighting when the taunting caused B1 to retaliate by fighting.

The taunting would be classified as fighting based purely on how B1 acted after the actions by A1.
No. The higher you go the expectation changes. I would tell a player to knock it off first. the difference between T and warning is in their delivery. more times than not its said in passing. A player yelling that in their opponents face = auto T --> this is the exception.

Geof I'm guessing you are new to officiating. Officiating is part science, and part art.

Adam Tue Nov 24, 2015 08:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof (Post 970676)
I agree with you. And these are the type of situations that I'm talking about. My issue with the way the rule is worded is that in both of these situations, you instigated a fight, which results in ejection. Doesn't seem like fair adjudication.
Frankly, I'm ok with it.

bas2456 Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren (Post 970669)
First of all, fighting is one of the worst possible outcome in any game. The experience will make you better if you learn from it.

My question, so what was Coach B doing if not helping?
First, I'm definitely learning. It was my first player ejection, first ejection of any kind, so now I know how to deal with the aftermath. I'm glad this happened in a freshman B game on a Tuesday night, rather than a Friday night varsity game.

To answer your question, the whole thing was over pretty quickly. The coach I think wanted to help out, but by the time he came into my field of vision (my back was to the bench as this all played out), the players had been separated by their teammates.

bas2456 Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:26pm
I want to change the subject within the fighting discussion.

How many of you pregame for a fighting situation? I know it'll be in all of my pregames going forward.

Those of you who work three man varsity games, how do you delegate responsibility if a fight breaks out? Does one of you keep an eye on the benches while the other two watch the players on the court?

I'd like to hear how you all prepare for these situations.

JRutledge Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 970678)
You're the one talking about people not being robots as an excuse for pushing somebody. That deserves derision.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
Agreed. You either enforce the rule and stop making excuses or consider something else to do.

Peace

JRutledge Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 970705)
I want to change the subject within the fighting discussion.

How many of you pregame for a fighting situation? I know it'll be in all of my pregames going forward.

Those of you who work three man varsity games, how do you delegate responsibility if a fight breaks out? Does one of you keep an eye on the benches while the other two watch the players on the court?

I'd like to hear how you all prepare for these situations.
I do on many occasions. Mostly I talk about how to prevent them and if they happen how we manage them. And since you cannot predict these from happening, you just go over the basics. But when it happens to you (hope that it does not) I always want to get some information from my partners before we decide what to do. When a fight breaks out, you will not have much time to be specific as to who does what. You might be the only one that sees a particular action and most of all you want to make sure you know who comes off the bench.

Peace

Adam Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:37am
The pregame on this is good reminder. The off official needs to get a wide view and see who comes into the fray from outside. Saying numbers and colors might help, but it might also confuse you if you don't have someone taking notes. Some advocate going to the table and having them take notes.
If you have 3, then one can watch the benches, one can watch the non-fighting players, and one can stay in the eye of the hurricane.

Geof Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 970706)
Agreed. You either enforce the rule and stop making excuses or consider something else to do.


Just out of curiosity....and this is a question for those who know the rules of NCAA and/or NBA, are the rules the same? That is, does doing something that causes someone else to retaliate by fighting result in an ejection?


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