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First Fighting Ejection
Had my first fighting ejection tonight. Here's what happened:
Boys Freshman B, first game of the season for both teams. Early second quarter, A11 and B31 are on the floor going after a loose ball. I blew the play dead for a held ball, and those two continue to try and wrestle the ball away from each other. We both saw A11 give a two handed shove to the chest of B31. B31 retaliated with a closed fist punch at A11. Neither of us saw any other players get involved, nor did we see anyone come off the bench. B's coach did come off the bench, but he didn't get involved in breaking up the boys. My partner and I got together to talk and we decided we had a technical foul on A11 for intentional contact during a dead ball, and a flagrant foul on B31 for fighting. We explained the situation to the coaches and they understood what happened. As for the resumption of play, we treated the situation as a false double foul. We shot two free throws for B on the technical by A11, followed by two free throws for Team A on the flagrant by B31. Team A got the ball at the division line following the free throws. Funny thing was, nothing at all precipitated this. The game was physical, but not chippy. Not sure what made things escalate so quickly. So how did we do? I'm particularly curious about the resumption of play part. What do you think? |
Both players should have been ejected, as the shove by A11 was the start of the fight. Add 1 foul to each teams foul total. No free throws. Award ball to team entitled to the AP throw in.
More interested in how one of the lead clinicians for the state cannot tell you if you handled the situation correctly, nor if you handled resumption of play procedure correctly for how you chose to administer the play. That is scary! I am especially interested to know who the assignor is, although, based on your location and the name of one of the schools, I have a pretty good guess already. |
Eject both. Rule says to eject the original guy for the shove cuz it caused the other player to react by fighting. Flagrant tech for both, free throws cancel cuz it's a double tech.
Even the way you did it the free throws would cancel cuz it's still a double tech, one tech being an Intentional Technical and the other being a Flagrant Technical. |
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Second, in such situations it is better to deem the two technical fouls to make a double technical foul and resume the game with no free throws and your original held ball call. |
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4-18-2
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Of course, the wording of the second article in the fighting definition needs some work as an "unsporting act" may not be the same as an "unsporting foul", which is non-contact by definition.
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I can see where A1 pushes B1 while saying "come on, let's go" to B1, with his body language indicating he's ready to fight. That I get, but the play in the OP definitely wasn't that. |
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Same reason that running a red light is failure to yield, unless it causes a fatal accident, in which case it becomes vehicular homicide. (or whatever the proper legal term) One must be held responsible for the consequences of one's actions. |
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Don't be a "yeah but" guy. Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk |
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I'm just wondering out loud so to speak. I'm not planning on making up my own rules. |
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Regardless of the laws/rules, we "the police" have to know and enforce them. As police; its sometimes difficult to know when to be a "yeah-butt" or a "yeah but" I'd argue that shoving can be a natural response: If someone falls on you, you catch an unintentional elbow to the face or some other accidental act by your opponent that draws blood or just really hurts... I'd say a player 13-50 may be unaware that they even shoved the other player when stricken with intense pain. In the court of law - this is self-defense or at the least a primal instinct. I don't think we go tossing kids in these situations - especially if they are in obvious pain. |
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There was a held ball, A11 shoves B31, B31 throws a punch at A11. That is a fight and A11's actions are deemed to be part of the fight. It is that simple. Officials who think it is a natural reaction to shove another player after wrestling over a held ball are not officials I want working with me in tough, physical ball games. |
If they fight they must go!
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Just trying to clarify what is and is not a fight aside from the above case - which is "simple"! No argument about running an instigator or someone fighting. |
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Punishment does not fit the crime
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The way the rule is written, A2 verbally insulting B2 which results in B2 punching A2 in the face means they both get tossed. Just doesn't feel like the punishment fits the crime. |
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Yep! I wish I had a cool signature |
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Peace |
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Addressing the "other situations in life" comment.....Unfortunately its not illegal to be a jerk and say rude things. It is illegal to assault someone, however. What that person said to provoke you assuredly doesn't matter in the eyes of the law. |
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Peace |
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Peace |
My only concern (and what I inferring in what others are writing) would be if the fight response is an overreaction on the part of the 2nd player. While I agree that if someone does something to start a fight and gets hit they are both culpable, we can't seem to agree on what exactly an "unsporting" act that leads to a fight might be. Some we know when we see it but others seem to be contextual and an overreaction.
Examples w/context: A) Its been a physical game all game. Players making lots of contact on cutters, rebounding and post position are physical contests. You get all the ones you should, teams are just battling hard. Team A continues to get the worse of it on the scoreboard and aren't handling it well. Late in the game the same play that has been happening all game on a cut or rebound happens (maybe its a foul you call, maybe its not) A5 jumps up and starts to swing at B5. I can't say what A5 did was unsporting but it did result in B5 swinging. Now they both have to go? B) B2 makes a tough and 1 layup through contact. Comes out celebrating. Something in the celebration either for cultural/personal reasons or just out of frustration causes A4 to jump and start swinging? Do they both go? What if the celebration was something we would tell the kid to knock off or even T up - do they both go now? |
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A) NO B) NO Neither of these plays have anything to do with a deliberate dead ball shove that leads to a fight. One is live ball contact, like a block/push/hold/whatever, that led to the opponent throwing a punch. Both DO NOT get tossed for this. One foul is a common personal foul the other is a flagrant that results in DQ. The other scenario is just as absurd. One player is happy, and as long as the celebration doesn't hit unsportsmanlike then we have a flagrant on the kid for throwing the punch and the kid who celebrated gets nothing unless there is retaliation. side note: you could also have a clear shove during a live ball that leads to a fight where both players would get tossed. You have to judge the action as one that is instigating or "non basketball" as I like to think of it. |
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Do not make it so complicated. Peace |
Personally, I use this forum as an opportunity to get clarity on rules and the spirit of the rules. The bantering about the validity of any rules doesn't prohibit me from enforcing those rules. I find that reading your commentary helps me better understand the who, what, when, why and how...
Thanks for keeping it real! |
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EXACTLY why I am here as well. Being discerning about the rules actually helps me understand and make accurate application of them. Or at least that is my hope, to understand more in order to improve I wish I had a cool signature |
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When you see the tie up, get in there and start communicating right away. "Easy, enough," whatever and do it forcefully. Then stay with them as they get up and keep them apart. "you're all right, calm down etc" . Any time two players are in a tie up, either on the ground or standing, there is potential for bad things to happen. Even in a game with no prior issues. Dead ball officiating is very important. |
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As I said, nothing precipitated the fight. It caught us by surprise. It escalated quickly. |
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A1's has no business pushing B1, and A2 has no business verbally assaulting B2. |
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Or to put it this way, B1 shouldn't punch A1 just because he got pushed, but B1 is not a robot. I do not want to work games with officials who make excuses for unsportsmanlike behavior. |
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No one is making excuses. We are discussing the the merits of the punishment. |
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My question, so what was Coach B doing if not helping? |
I don't have any issue ejecting both players.
I'm just wondering about the verbal one. Say you have this. Player A1 blocks B1, then says something along the lines of get that out, or weak. whatever. Something that rises to the level where you give the player a T. Nothing too bad like racial or loud swearing, but sending a message that sort of thing is inappropriate. B1 gets angry because of the taunt and hits A1. So you are going to eject both players here? That doesn't seem right to me at all. The technical was a fitting punishment. A1 couldn't have known that it would lead to a punch. There would be situations where a taunt could reasonably be seen as "fighting words" and maybe ejecting both is the right thing to do but in my situation this is just a regular T and nothing too serious that I'm sure many of us have called. Or this one which happened to me in a game. Two players on the ground after a loose ball. One is on top, doing that slowly getting off the other. Being a jerk about it. The player on the ground pushes him off. Not in an aggressive way, just a regular push. Completely justified in my opinion, and my partner's who calls a T on the player who was being the instigator by taking his time getting off the other. His coach has no problem with the T and chastises the player. I guess we could have given a double T here. But say the instigator player with the T then hits the player who was on the bottom. Are we really going to eject both players because it could be argued the push started the fight? No one thought the player who pushed the other off should get a T. It would seem absurd if that could be considered a start of a fight thus both should be ejected. |
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RULING: Both A1 and B1 are charged with a flagrant technical foul for fighting and are disqualified. A1's action is defined as fighting when the taunting caused B1 to retaliate by fighting. The taunting would be classified as fighting based purely on how B1 acted after the actions by A1. |
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Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk |
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You won't do it in my games, but have at it. |
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Geof I'm guessing you are new to officiating. Officiating is part science, and part art. |
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To answer your question, the whole thing was over pretty quickly. The coach I think wanted to help out, but by the time he came into my field of vision (my back was to the bench as this all played out), the players had been separated by their teammates. |
I want to change the subject within the fighting discussion.
How many of you pregame for a fighting situation? I know it'll be in all of my pregames going forward. Those of you who work three man varsity games, how do you delegate responsibility if a fight breaks out? Does one of you keep an eye on the benches while the other two watch the players on the court? I'd like to hear how you all prepare for these situations. |
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Peace |
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Peace |
The pregame on this is good reminder. The off official needs to get a wide view and see who comes into the fray from outside. Saying numbers and colors might help, but it might also confuse you if you don't have someone taking notes. Some advocate going to the table and having them take notes.
If you have 3, then one can watch the benches, one can watch the non-fighting players, and one can stay in the eye of the hurricane. |
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Just out of curiosity....and this is a question for those who know the rules of NCAA and/or NBA, are the rules the same? That is, does doing something that causes someone else to retaliate by fighting result in an ejection? |
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NFHS--yes. Learned that part of the rule when I first learned the fight rules. It was always emphasized that an unsporting act that precipitates a fight is considered part of a fight. Great incentive for players to not do stupid stuff. Don't know why any official would worry about the "fairness" of the rule or make excuses for why a player commits an unsporting act. |
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We can debate the merits of the rule all day long, but it is pretty black and white as far as rules go: eject both. I think we can all agree that is how it reads, regardless of any literacy accusations. :)
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This was your post. ;)
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Peace |
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It sounds like most are ok with the way the rule is written, and I can understand that viewpoint. Its makes things black and white and easy to deal with. |
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Peace |
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__________________________________________________ _____________ You wish they could keep a player in the game after his unsporting act leads directly to a fight. You have clearly stated that's what you want: Quote:
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Why any official wishes to keep such a player in the game is beyond comprehension. |
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Peace |
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Moderator note to all involved: No more personal insults. |
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Fights ...
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