False Double?

[Refhoop]

Varsity Game Last night:
A1 jumps for a corner 3 in my PCA and before he lands is fouled by B1, attempt is no good.
At what I consider simultaneously; L whistles A4 holding B4 on the rebound.
We both, blow and hold and come together - cause I know he's not calling my corner 3 from the L... he must have something else.
As we huddle, I say we have a false double.
L (most veteran and is a college women's official) and T (new guy) both agree w/one another and concluded; let's go with the "first foul" that happened (corner 3). We didn't an argument from the coaches, but I know we didn't handle this correctly!
1. Is this a false-double or a simultaneous foul?
2. How do we administer this for NFHS?
3. Who gets the next possession and why?
BTW: with rebounding as a POE, I'm thinking we may see more of this...

Thanks!

[Raymond]

This doesn't answer your question, but goes to game awareness.

Officials should not be so quick to blow the whistle for rebounding action unless there is something egregious going on; patient whistle on rebounding action.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

Varsity Game Last night:
A1 jumps for a corner 3 in my PCA and before he lands is fouled by B1, attempt is no good.
At what I consider simultaneously; L whistles A4 holding B4 on the rebound.
We both, blow and hold and come together - cause I know he's not calling my corner 3 from the L... he must have something else.
As we huddle, I say we have a false double.
L (most veteran and is a college women's official) and T (new guy) both agree w/one another and concluded; let's go with the "first foul" that happened (corner 3). We didn't an argument from the coaches, but I know we didn't handle this correctly!
1. Is this a false-double or a simultaneous foul?
2. How do we administer this for NFHS?
3. Who gets the next possession and why?
BTW: with rebounding as a POE, I'm thinking we may see more of this...

Thanks!

Let me preface this by saying I don't have a problem with what you guys decided to do, but for the sake of your questions...

1. A simultaneous foul occurs when the fouls are committed at approximately the same time. That sounds like what you have here.
2. How do we resume play for a simultaneous foul? See 4-36-1.
3. Was there team control? See 4-36-2-c.

[deecee]

I have a hard time imagining contact on a rebounding foul before the three point shooter returns to the floor. I'm assuming it's while the ball was in flight to the basket?

In this case this is a simultaneous foul but like BNR said, unless egregious, rebounding whistles should be VERY patient. It's simultaneous because it's fouls committed by each team but NOT by opponents (i.e. A1 and B1).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

I have a hard time imagining contact on a rebounding foul before the three point shooter returns to the floor. I'm assuming it's while the ball was in flight to the basket?

Sometimes, player start fighting for position as soon as the ball is shot....not really that hard for it to happen. If it is rough enough, it should be called, even if the ball is still in flight.

[Nevadaref]

There are three main cases of handling your situation which break into six subcases due to live/dead ball. All adhere to NFHS rules.
If you state as a fact that the try was not yet over, then unfortunately, the crew working the contest screwed the defending team according to the rules because both fouls were live ball fouls and needed to be penalized. Why an official would ever decide to not penalize a legitimate foul during a live ball can only be due to weak rules knowledge. Such an official is forced to take that path as he/she just doesn't know how to properly adjudicate a given situation.

Now to your situation:
Case 1. The foul against the shooter happens prior to the rebounding foul.
A. If the try ends before the rebounding foul occurs, then that foul is a dead ball foul and ignored, by rule, unless intentional or flagrant. Verdict: penalize only the defensive foul against the airborne shooter. Award the FTs and continue as normal from the final FT. (You have stated that this was not the case, but is what the crew chose to do.)
B. The rebounding foul occurs prior to the end of the try. This is a false double foul. Administer in the order of occurrence. Verdict: 3 FTs for the shooter with the lane cleared and then either bonus FTs to B at the other end or a throw-in on the end line (running if the final FT by A was made).

Case 2. The rebounding foul occurs prior to the foul against the airborne shooter. (Happens more frequently than case #1.)
A. The try ends prior to the first foul. The dead ball rebounding foul is ignored by rule and only the foul against the airborne shooter is charged and penalized. Verdict: shoot three FTs with players on the lane.
B. The try was not over prior to the first foul. This is a false double foul and admin is in order of occurrence. Either bonus FTs for B at other end and then continue with 3 shots for A with the lane occupied OR charge the foul by A, but the throw-in gets skipped due to the subsequent foul and proceed to awarding A 3 shots with the lane occupied.

Case 3. Both fouls happen at the same time or so close to each other that the officials can't tell which was first.
A. The try was not over when the fouls occurred. Verdict penalize both. Report both fouls and award no FTs. Resume with POI. Either a made goal by A and an endline throw-in B or use the AP arrow on a missed try.
B. The try was over when the fouls occurred. Verdict only the defensive foul against the airborne shooter is penalized as BY RULE this is a personal foul and the rebounding foul is a dead ball foul which is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. So only charge the foul to B and award 3 FTs with the lane occupied.

In my opinion, the false double foul with both being live ball fouls is preferable to the simultaneous foul situation when a missed try is involved. I just feel that justice is better served if FTs are awarded to a shooter who was fouled. So I would advocate that the crew try to determine which foul was first and proceed from there.

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There are three main cases of handling your situation which break into six subcases due to live/dead ball. All adhere to NFHS rules.
If you state as a fact that the try was not yet over, then unfortunately, the crew working the contest screwed the defending team according to the rules because both fouls were live ball fouls and needed to be penalized. Why an official would ever decide to not penalize a legitimate foul during a live ball can only be due to weak rules knowledge. Such an official is forced to take that path as he/she just doesn't know how to properly adjudicate a given situation.

Now to your situation:
Case 1. The foul against the shooter happens prior to the rebounding foul.
A. If the try ends before the rebounding foul occurs, then that foul is a dead ball foul and ignored, by rule, unless intentional or flagrant. Verdict: penalize only the defensive foul against the airborne shooter. Award the FTs and continue as normal from the final FT. (You have stated that this was not the case, but is what the crew chose to do.)
B. The rebounding foul occurs prior to the end of the try. This is a false double foul. Administer in the order of occurrence. Verdict: 3 FTs for the shooter with the lane cleared and then either bonus FTs to B at the other end or a throw-in on the end line (running if the final FT by A was made).

Case 2. The rebounding foul occurs prior to the foul against the airborne shooter. (Happens more frequently than case #1.)
A. The try ends prior to the first foul. The dead ball rebounding foul is ignored by rule and only the foul against the airborne shooter is charged and penalized. Verdict: shoot three FTs with players on the lane.
B. The try was not over prior to the first foul. This is a false double foul and admin is in order of occurrence. Either bonus FTs for B at other end and then continue with 3 shots for A with the lane occupied OR charge the foul by A, but the throw-in gets skipped due to the subsequent foul and proceed to awarding A 3 shots with the lane occupied.

Case 3. Both fouls happen at the same time or so close to each other that the officials can't tell which was first.
A. The try was not over when the fouls occurred. Verdict penalize both. Report both fouls and award no FTs. Resume with POI. Either a made goal by A and an endline throw-in B or use the AP arrow on a missed try.
B. The try was over when the fouls occurred. Verdict only the defensive foul against the airborne shooter is penalized as BY RULE this is a personal foul and the rebounding foul is a dead ball foul which is ignored unless intentional or flagrant. So only charge the foul to B and award 3 FTs with the lane occupied.

In my opinion, the false double foul with both being live ball fouls is preferable to the simultaneous foul situation when a missed try is involved. I just feel that justice is better served if FTs are awarded to a shooter who was fouled. So I would advocate that the crew try to determine which foul was first and proceed from there.

This must have been how the kids felt sitting in Dr. James Naismith' P.E. class when he divulged the original 13 rules... BRILLIANT!!!!
So I'm crystal clear: In Case 2.A Why wouldn't a foul prior to the shot be a team foul and no shot? Is it because we have a double whistle?
Or should I just race you to the table :0

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Case 2. The rebounding foul occurs prior to the foul against the airborne shooter. (Happens more frequently than case #1.)
A. The try ends prior to the first foul. The dead ball rebounding foul is ignored by rule and only the foul against the airborne shooter is charged and penalized. Verdict: shoot three FTs with players on the lane.
B. The try was not over prior to the first foul. This is a false double foul and admin is in order of occurrence. Either bonus FTs for B at other end and then continue with 3 shots for A with the lane occupied OR charge the foul by A, but the throw-in gets skipped due to the subsequent foul and proceed to awarding A 3 shots with the lane occupied.

2A. if the rebounding foul occurs prior to the foul against the shooter why is it ignored?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Case 2. The rebounding foul occurs prior to the foul against the airborne shooter. (Happens more frequently than case #1.)
A. The try ends prior to the first foul. The dead ball rebounding foul is ignored by rule and only the foul against the airborne shooter is charged and penalized. Verdict: shoot three FTs with players on the lane.

Agree, if the try ended because it was successful. But, if the try ended and was not successful, then the ball is still live. Penalize both fouls (as in 2.B)

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you state as a fact that the try was not yet over, then unfortunately, the crew working the contest screwed the defending team according to the rules because both fouls were live ball fouls and needed to be penalized. Why an official would ever decide to not penalize a legitimate foul during a live ball can only be due to weak rules knowledge. Such an official is forced to take that path as he/she just doesn't know how to properly adjudicate a given situation.

I agree with this 150%. I would like to dwell on it for a minute.

What is it about basketball in which a crew is in such a rush to make complex decisions (or wrongly simplify them) when in other sports crews are sometimes willing to spend several minutes to get it right?

This bugs the $hi+ out of me, especially when I'm a junior official and a veteran---who might be a pretty good play caller but doesn't understand rules logic to save his life---bullies us into some B.S. decision that keeps it simple.

I'm not going to lie. When I read the OP, the first thought that came to mind was "simultaneous foul." So then I thought, "ball not dead until try ends, score the FG if it's good, no free throws on a DF or SF, POI." It took me ten seconds to map this out in my brain. It would only take me another 10-20 seconds to explain it to my crewmates, and then after a small delay to explain it to the coaches, we could be on our way knowing we applied the rules correctly.

I read through the case book---cover to cover---at least once per year for exactly this reason. Imagine if NFL officials didn't read through their case books at least once per year!

Veterans: You gotta know this stuff. Or at least if you're not the strongest on rules, take your time to get it right and/or listen to your umpires explain it to you because they might just get it right. Swallow your pride.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why an official would ever decide to not penalize a legitimate foul during a live ball can only be due to weak rules knowledge.

This is not necessarily true. Many officials I know are big fans of following the path of least resistance. The only flagrant personal foul I ever called, my partner was over inbounding the ball while I was at the table. I killed the play. I thought the signal had been obvious, if not the play itself. When I told him what the call was, he was incredulous: "You have to fill out that paperwork!"

[Refhoop]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

Let me preface this by saying I don't have a problem with what you guys decided to do, but for the sake of your questions...

1. A simultaneous foul occurs when the fouls are committed at approximately the same time. That sounds like what you have here.
2. How do we resume play for a simultaneous foul? See 4-36-1.
3. Was there team control? See 4-36-2-c.

No team control; as the ball was in flight toward the basket, but had not entered the basket. Both fouls happened at the same time: simultaneous fouls or a false double?

Can't this be a simultaneous, false double... holy crap!?!?

8.6.3: If a false double foul involves any type of single foul and any type of double foul, play is resumed with the penalty for only the single foul, as if the double or simultaneous foul had not occurred.
According to this rule and the case for the false double: 4.19.9.A.
We should have reported both fouls, then had A1 shoot the three throws with no players on the lane and given the throw-in to B on the baseline...
Someone tell me why this isn't right please?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Refhoop

No team control; as the ball was in flight toward the basket, but had not entered the basket. Both fouls happened at the same time: simultaneous fouls or a false double?

Can't this be a simultaneous, false double... holy crap!?!?

8.6.3: If a false double foul involves any type of single foul and any type of double foul, play is resumed with the penalty for only the single foul, as if the double or simultaneous foul had not occurred.
According to this rule and the case for the false double: 4.19.9.A.
We should have reported both fouls, then had A1 shoot the three throws with no players on the lane and given the throw-in to B on the baseline...
Someone tell me why this isn't right please?

your situation isnt an 8.6.3 situation. that is when you have a double foul in one place on court A1 v B1, and another foul at the same time somewhere else.

[Refhoop]

True!