Throw-in question

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Big Cat:

Yes. But what is your point with regard to the original situation that we are discussing?

MTD, Sr.

you are defining what a reasonable amount of space is when you separate them so a player can get in between. to allow any player to spread his legs on the circle as wide as he can, just because he gets there first, isnt consistent with rules as a whole. Screening, verticality etc.

I will always "listen" to what you say. I wont always agree. I dont here if you would allow a player to spread his legs way wide etc. and an opponent wanted in.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This is not a screening situation.

Why not? Screening is defined as action by a player who, without causing contact, delays, or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position, like a desired position on the jump ball circle.

A nonjumper wanting a desired spot on the jump ball circle certainly falls under the screening definition. Said player wants the desired spot, and wants to prevent an opponent from taking that desired spot.

[just another ref]

The reason this isn't about screening is because this jockeying for position is taking place before the ball is live. I don't think you're going to call contact with this guy who happens to be standing with his legs spread wide intentional or flagrant, are you?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because screening is defined as action by a player who, without causing contact, delays, or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position, like a desired position on the jump ball circle.

So, you're calling a foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Suppose two team B players are in adjacent positions around the circle. We know if team A desires in between they are entitled to it. How much room would you give A to get between the B players. 6 inches...6 feet? I bet you'd tell the B players to separate enough so that the A player could get in with a normal stance, shoulder width etc...

Agree, but what is the rule basis for this interpretation, if it really doesn't involve screening?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The answer key which he sent said true for both ...

Was there a reference, or a citation, for the true answer for the jump ball circle three foot width space question?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, but what is the rule basis for this interpretation, if it really doesn't involve screening?

what i have said is that, although the rules dont specifically provide a width for non jumpers on the circle, i do not believe that it is unlimited. just as i dont believe that separating two b players on the circle by only 6 to 8 inches would be enough. Mark agreed, and i think most would, that we would make the B players separate enough that A could take a normal stance. i dont think any of us would separate the B players so that A could spread his legs way wide.

What is considered a normal stance? we see examples in the screening rule--shoulder width...we know in verticality player stays in their cylinder etc. when a player is rebounding he cant stick arms or legs out abnormally. these are examples of players in proper positions. i think it is reasonable to interpret the width for non jumpers as a normal stance for that player.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

what i have said is that, although the rules dont specifically provide a width for non jumpers on the circle, i do not believe that it is unlimited. just as i dont believe that separating two b players on the circle by only 6 to 8 inches would be enough. Mark agreed, and i think most would, that we would make the B players separate enough that A could take a normal stance. i dont think any of us would separate the B players so that A could spread his legs way wide.

What is considered a normal stance? we see examples in the screening rule--shoulder width...we know in verticality player stays in their cylinder etc. when a player is rebounding he cant stick arms or legs out abnormally. these are examples of players in proper positions. i think it is reasonable to interpret the width for non jumpers as a normal stance for that player.

If a player gets to the circle first and takes up that space by spreading his legs, he is doing nothing illegal. If you make him pull his right leg in, what's preventing him from spreading his left leg out to create the same stance?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Was there a reference, or a citation, for the true answer for the jump ball circle three foot width space question?

1-3-1 tells us spaces are 36 inches deep. There is no mention of width, here or anywhere else, as far as I know.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If a player gets to the circle first and takes up that space by spreading his legs, he is doing nothing illegal. If you make him pull his right leg in, what's preventing him from spreading his left leg out to create the same stance?

if he is spread wayy wide and another player wants a spot i will tell him to take a normal stance. He will decide which leg he pulls in. if there is no one on the side of him he can do what he wants.

i've not seen anyone so spread out in 30 years that would make me say anything.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

if he is spread wayy wide and another player wants a spot i will tell him to take a normal stance. He will decide which leg he pulls in. if there is no one on the side of him he can do what he wants.

i've not seen anyone so spread out in 30 years that would make me say anything.

How about this? He has to allow the opponent a position between him and his teammate. That's the only restriction. He has to move in such a way that creates a space. He can stand any way he wants. Standing in such a way may or may not make this player more likely to foul when the ball does become live. Deal with that when it happens.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

if he is spread wayy wide and another player wants a spot i will tell him to take a normal stance. He will decide which leg he pulls in. if there is no one on the side of him he can do what he wants.

i've not seen anyone so spread out in 30 years that would make me say anything.

I'm trying to figure out how you would know another player wants that spot between his legs. If he is already standing there with his legs spread, and 2 opponents stand on either side of him, what is your indication they want some portion of the area he is occupying?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i've not seen anyone so spread out in 30 years that would make me say anything.

I think this is the most important part of this discussion.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm trying to figure out how you would know another player wants that spot between his legs. If he is already standing there with his legs spread, and 2 opponents stand on either side of him, what is your indication they want some portion of the area he is occupying?

a player would have to say something. and the other player would have to be wayy wide. if two B players are 10 inches apart and an A said i want in what would you do? we have no width for non jumpers. is that 10 inches enough? A can stand in there sideways. as i said earlier, i would make them move to allow A to take a normal stance.

im simply saying that although, we have no specific width for non jumper spots it is reasonable to say they are the width of the players normal stance. that's what we do when we separate them.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is the most important part of this discussion.

agreed. this is all theory..