2015-16 The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules ...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

JRut, you are making an argument that is correct for a throw-in. No one is refuting your point on that basis. However, your notion (at least the way I understand it) that player control must exist in the FC before a BC violation can happen is simply not true. The case play in question has nothing to do with a throw-in. If true team control has existed in the BC and a pass to the FC touches a member of Team A, then that establishes team control in the FC, which is the requirement for a violation.

A team is in control until the opponent secures control.

The caseplay has nothing to do with what the official was having a problem with. The "myth" he did not understand was about a throw-in. Not sure what you are trying to argue here.

I also quoted the actual rule. I did not make a claim and leave it alone. I quoted the actual rule. The rule says that you must have TC in the FC before you can have a BC violation. The rule says TC is not established in the court until player possession (which is the same thing that starts PC).

If it is simply not true, then what rule are you reading? BTW, all we are talking about anyway is the a backcourt violation. That is why you cannot have a violation for a thrower-in to throw the ball to the BC and be touched by their teammate. If that was the case, then you would be right.

And if you having not been paying attention, there were a couple of other people saying the exact same thing. That is why I quoted the actual rule. This is not my first rodeo man.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The caseplay has nothing to do with what the official was having a problem with. The "myth" he did not understand was about a throw-in. Not sure what you are trying to argue here.

I also quoted the actual rule. I did not make a claim and leave it alone. I quoted the actual rule. The rule says that you must have TC in the FC before you can have a BC violation. The rule says TC is not established in the court until player possession (which is the same thing that starts PC) .

If it is simply not true, then what rule are you reading? BTW, all we are talking about anyway is the a backcourt violation. That is why you cannot have a violation for a thrower-in to throw the ball to the BC and be touched by their teammate. If that was the case, then you would be right.

And if you having not been paying attention, there were a couple of other people saying the exact same thing. That is why I quoted the actual rule. This is not my first rodeo man.

Peace

You specifically stated that the case play was wrong and that you would never enforce it as such, and everyone on here disagreed with you. None of the evidence you have shown indicates that the case play is incorrect. This ain't "my first rodeo" either.

You do not have to have player control in the frontcourt to have a backcourt violation. You have to have team control.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

You specifically stated that the case play was wrong and that you would never enforce it as such, and everyone on here disagreed with you. None of the evidence you have shown indicates that the case play is incorrect. This ain't "my first rodeo" either.

I believe the case play is wrong. I am not the first or the last person to say that. It does not fit with the rule they have in place and yes it came up only when the rule was added for TC for a throw-in for foul purposes. Also the NF came out and said they had some issues with their wording and that only the rules on TC for a throw-in were meant for foul purposes. That is why they had to make that statement after the fact.

Originally Posted by SC Official

You do not have to have player control in the frontcourt to have a backcourt violation. You have to have team control.

Can you show the rule that says how TC is establihed?

I will do it for you.

Rule 4-12-2a says: "When a player of a team is in control."

What am I missing here?

Oh, Rule 4-12-1 says: "A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding, dribbling a live ball......"

Touching a ball does not establishes control. You have to have touching before possession, but touching a ball does not mean you are holding or dribbling a ball.

And Rule 9-9-1 says: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the front court......

You have to have player control before you have team control. Player control is restrictive to when you can call a timeout, what type of foul is called and if you can have a closely guarded count. Team control does not require player control after team control has been established, which is why you can have a BC violation.

Peace

[SC Official]

You already had the required player control in the backcourt, which established true TC.

4-12-3b Team control continues until an opponent secures control.

The touch in the frontcourt by Team A establishes TC in the FC in the case play in question.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

You already had the required player control in the backcourt, which established true TC.

4-12-3b Team control continues until an opponent secures control.

The touch in the frontcourt by Team A establishes TC in the FC in the case play in question.

What does 9.9.1 C (Not 9.9.1 D) have to do with the question the Geof brought up?

This was a ball passed by a thrower (from a throw-in), and the play or question from Geof was off of a throw-in (Which again we are in a rules myth thread) not a pass from a person on the court.

What part of having control in the FC is a myth with the BC violation rule?

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What does 9.9.1 C (Not 9.9.1 D) have to do with the question the Geof brought up?

This was a ball already thrower (from a throw-in), and the play or question from Geof was off of a throw-in (Which again we are in a rules myth thread).

What part of having control in the FC is a myth with the BC violation rule?

Peace

Because OKREF refuted your not entirely correct post on the first page of this thread by citing this exact case play that we are debating.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You also need to read Rule 9-9 that says very clearly:



You do not have TC in the FC by touching the basketball. You have to first possess the basketball to establish TC in the FC.

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yes you do. Certainly not on a throw in, but it is possible to touch the ball in the FC without controlling it to have FC status.

Case book 9.9.1 C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt A2 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt where it touches the floor. A2 recovers in the backcourt.

RULING: Violation. The ball was in control of A1 and Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court.

The only reason I posted the case play was because of the quote above. I was never talking about a throw in. Just pointing out the fact that TC had been established, a pass was made, TC still exists, the ball was touched by A in the front court, establishing TC status by A in the FC, A was then the first to touch the ball in the BC, resulting in a violation. Rut, yes on a throw in there must be player control (which means TC) before a BC can happen, but your quote that I have highlighted doesn't apply unilaterally.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

The only reason I posted the case play was because of the quote above. I was never talking about a throw in. Just pointing out the fact that TC had been established, a pass was made, TC still exists, the ball was touched by A in the front court, establishing TC status by A in the FC, A was then the first to touch the ball in the BC, resulting in a violation. Rut, yes on a throw in there must be player control (which means TC) before a BC can happen, but your quote that I have highlighted doesn't apply unilaterally.

Now you are adding stuff. We were only talking about a throw-in. And still you have to have PC before you can have any TC at any point. Now if it does not apply as you say, what did you show that even applies to this case?

Peace