crowding the plate......

[chuckfan1]

Ok heres another one, same tourney, Im BU still, earlier game.
--4th game of the day on this field. Games running tight, so little or no time in between to re-do fields. They rake it a bit, and thats it, play ball. Hence, no lines in batters box. Team on defense getting shut out 5-0, and chirping about my PUs zone. Lefty comes up, really crowds the plate. Top half of body,leaning over zone a bit. Catcher tells my buddy that the batter is out of the box. Partner tells him no. Catcher tells him hes standing on the plate and he cant do that. Partner tells F2 theres no rule that says he cant. (Batter did have part of his foot touching what probably would have been batters box, and foot right up against the plate). And my partner would have called anything that would have resulted from all this. Batter getting hit while in the zone, out of the box, etc. So, what happens? High-inside pitch, batter does try to get out of the way, and gets doinked. Defensive coach comes out, and tells partner that batter cant "lean over the plate". Partner says, no such rule exsists. Defensive coach contines along this line for awhile to no avail. Same guy comes up again later, and crowds the plate again. Coach come out to question, doesnt get any further, and says just put him on.
Anybody??

[GarthB]

OBR 6.03

The batter’s legal position shall be with both feet within the batter’s box.


Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: APPROVED RULING The lines defining the box are within the batter’s box.

From Evans:

Professional Interpretation: If a batter’s foot is touching any part of a line defining the box at contact, such position shall be considered legal. The umpire should instruct the batter to refrain from touching the plate and line when assuming his initial stance.

[chuckfan1]

Garth, agreed about being in the box. But batter standing on the line, is "in the box". And if his toe happens to touch up against the plate, or even on it a bit, then let the play happen. And then rule accordingly. If the batter then did something against the rules, call it. Can benefit the defense.
Found this, and could use a reference, and does make sense:

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/rules...ory.cfm/batter

Scroll down to rule myth #5

[GarthB]

Originally posted by chuckfan1
Garth, agreed about being in the box. But batter standing on the line, is "in the box". And if his toe happens to touch up against the plate, or even on it a bit, then let the play happen. And then rule accordingly. If the batter then did something against the rules, call it. Can benefit the defense.
Found this, and could use a reference, and does make sense:

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/rules...ory.cfm/batter

Scroll down to rule myth #5

1. No one said he was out. (In reference to your myth)

2. Do not confuse initial stance being in the batter's box with being out of the batter's box at time of contact with the ball.

3. Read again the last sentence in my quote from Evans.

[Rich]

Oh, please. That list of myths is interesting, but not exactly what I would consider authoritative opinion that can be quoted to make a point.

The current instructions to major league umpires requires that the batter's initial position be entirely within the box. That is, the batter must have his entire foot in the box, including the lines. The penalty for a batter repeatedly refusing the umpire's instruction (to get in the box) is ejection.

Of course, on the swing the foot must be COMPLETELY out of the box for the umpire to call the batter out.

Rich

[blueskysblue]

Interesting what the MLB umpires are instructed, contrary to any published rules I've ever seen. Of course, since 99.9 % of the umpires in the world will never get even close to the MLB level, I'd say leave their interpretations to them. They don't set the standard for those of us that work at all the other levels.

The line is part of the box, and as long as any part of the foot is touching the line, the foot is in the box (FED, ASA, Little League, American Legion, etc.). That's O.K. for being in the box.

Contacting the plate: there is no violation, as long as the above requirement(s) are met, until contact with the ball by the bat. At the time of contact, fair or foul, any part of the batter touching the plate, batter's out. This is different than the whole foot being outside the box at the time of contact. Related, but different, violations, and not dependent upon one another.

[Bfair]

The PU told the catcher and coach he didn't consider the batter out of the box. That's the PU's judgment no different than his ball/strike call. He also told them there's no rule prohibiting the batter from leaning over the plate. The PU is correct in that there is no rule prohibiting that.

The problem here isn't whether or not the foot is in the box or whether the line is part of the box. Rather, the problem is whether or not the umpire considers him as in the box since no line exists. If the batter is touching the plate with his foot, like the catcher claims, then the defense needs to get the umpire to admit that fact. If he doesn't admit it, then it's purely judgment. If he says the batter is touching the plate and that there's no rule against it, then the coach needs to protest. He didn't protest.

Still, the PU could have simply drawn the inside line to the box (6" off the plate), told the batter not to set up outside that line, and kept everyone happy. The batter can still "lean across the plate" if he wants to, but if he's hit in the zone the PU should have the gonads to keep him the box.

This PU caused his own headaches that could have easily been avoided.
The coach let him off easy by not pressing the issue on the rule interpretation and using his protest tool to assure the rule was adhered to as best it could be under the conditions.

All in all, it sounds like either you didn't get the full details, or else the PU is a total horse's a$$.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

Originally posted by blueskysblue


Contacting the plate: there is no violation, as long as the above requirement(s) are met, until contact with the ball by the bat. At the time of contact, fair or foul, any part of the batter touching the plate, batter's out. This is different than the whole foot being outside the box at the time of contact. Related, but different, violations, and not dependent upon one another.

Let's trade citations. Here's mine:

OBR 6.06(a) A batter is out for illegal action when -

He hits a ball with one of both feet on the ground entirely outside the batter's box.

Where's yours?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by blueskysblue
The line is part of the box, and as long as any part of the foot is touching the line, the foot is in the box (FED, ASA, Little League, American Legion, etc.). That's O.K. for being in the box.

As Rich and Garth have attempted to point out, this is simply not correct, when speaking of the batter's initial stance in the box. Following are the releveant rule and authoritative citations, for all major codes:

The pro rule, which is also verbatim the Little League rule:

6.03 - The batter's legal position shall be with both feet within the batter's box.
APPROVED RULING: The lines defining the box are within the batter's box.

Little League's Right Call comment:

Make sure the batter's feet are inside before the pitch.

The PBUC (formerly NAPBL) Manual:

1.9 BATTER'S POSITION IN BATTER'S BOX
The lines defining the batter's box are considered within the batter's box. When the batter assumes his position in the batter's box, he shall have both feet completely within the batter's box; i.e., no part of either foot may extend beyond the lines defining the box when the batter assumes his position. If a batter hits a ball (fair, foul, or foul tip) with one or both feet on the ground entirely outside the batter's box, he shall be declared out.

The MLB Umpire's Manual:

2.17 BATTER'S POSITION IN BATTER'S BOX
When the batter assumes a batting stance in the batter's box, he shall have both feet entirely within the batter's box; i.e., no part of either foot may extend beyond the outer edge of the lines defining the box when the batter assumes a position in the box. There is no penalty specified for violation other than the batter shall be instructed to stay within the batter's box if brought to the attention of the umpire, or - if blatant or recurring violation - upon immediate direction of the umpire. If a player, after so directed by the umpire, blatantly refuses to comply, he is subject to ejection. See Official Baseball Rule 6.03.

Under Official Baseball Rule 6.06(a), if a batter hits a ball (fair, foul, or foul tip) with one or both feet on the ground entirely outside the batter's box, he shall be declared out. (See Official Baseball Rule 6.06(a).)

TO CLARIFY. There are two different rules regarding the batter's position in the batter's box. Rule 6.03 requires the batter to have both feet within the batter's box when assuming an initial position in the box prior to hitting (no portion of the foot may be outside the line under this provision, although no penalty is prescribed other than the instructions given above). Rule 6.06(a) provides that the batter be declared out if he hits the ball with one or both feet on the ground entirely outside the batter's box. (So long as any part of the foot is touching any part of the line when the batter hits the ball, he is within the rules.)

Evans Professional Interpretation on 6.03:

If a batter's foot is touching any part of a line defining the box at contact, such position shall be considered legal. The umpire should instruct the batter to refrain from touching the plate and line when assuming his initial stance.

Jaksa/Roder comment:

A batter must have the whole of both feet on or within the lines of the batter's box when he assumes his position.

NCAA Rule:

A batter's legal position in the box shall be defined as having both feet completely within the box (lines are part of the box).

NCAA Approved Ruling:

A.R. -Umpires are to enforce this rule as written. If the line of the batter's box has been erased, the umpire shall require that upon the batter's initial stance, both feet are no closer than 6 inches from the inside edge of home plate.

NCAA Penalty: Require the batter to move to a proper position.

FED Rule:

Each player of the team at bat shall become the batter and shall take his position within a batter's box, on either side of home plate, in the order in which his name appears on the lineup card as delivered to the umpire prior to the game (4-1-3).

FED Casebook Comment:

7.3.2 Comment: The lines of the batter's box are within the box. When taking a stance in the box, both of the batter's feet must be completely in the batter's box (not touching the ground outside the batter's box). When making contact with the pitched ball, if the foot is touching the line of the batter's box, it is considered to be in the batter's box even if it is also touching the ground outside the line of the batter's box.

[Jim Porter]

I dunno, Dave. Could you quote a few more sources on that? I'm just not convinced.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by blueskysblue


The line is part of the box, and as long as any part of the foot is touching the line, the foot is in the box (FED, ASA, Little League, American Legion, etc.). That's O.K. for being in the box.

In ASA which you referred to, it is required that the batter start out completely within the lines of the box, not standing on them.
Just had to pick that nit.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by scottk_61

In ASA which you referred to, it is required that the batter start out completely within the lines of the box, not standing on them.
Just had to pick that nit.

My ASA friends tell me that is not exactly correct. When taking their position in the box, the batter can be standing on the line as long as no part of the foot is touching the ground outside of the line. (It sounds like all the baseball and softball rules are in sync on this one.)

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by SC Ump

My ASA friends tell me that is not exactly correct. When taking their position in the box, the batter can be standing on the line as long as no part of the foot is touching the ground outside of the line. (It sounds like all the baseball and softball rules are in sync on this one.)

While I know we are morphing this thread into something other than the original, I hold at my point.
In ASA, a batter may not start out standing on the lines, he must be completely inside to start legally. Now realistically, it is rarely ever called except when there has been a problem with players running out of the box to hit the ball...which is a somewhat common tactic in the sport. Tell your friends to bone up on the rules and to read a case book.
The only penalty is to direct them into the box and not allow a pitch unitl they do enter the box legally. If you had an arguement you could eventually toss that player but I really don't think I hvae ever heard of that happening in 20 + years.

[BigUmpJohn]

Originally posted by scottk_61
While I know we are morphing this thread into something other than the original, I hold at my point.
In ASA, a batter may not start out standing on the lines, he must be completely inside to start legally. Now realistically, it is rarely ever called except when there has been a problem with players running out of the box to hit the ball...which is a somewhat common tactic in the sport. Tell your friends to bone up on the rules and to read a case book.
The only penalty is to direct them into the box and not allow a pitch unitl they do enter the box legally. If you had an arguement you could eventually toss that player but I really don't think I hvae ever heard of that happening in 20 + years.

I agree with Scott. I don't want to intrude on a baseball thread , but the batter in ASA must be completely WITHIN THE LINES and NOT ON THE LINES of the batter's box prior to the start of the pitch. The penalty I don't believe is as severe as ejection, just a strike called on the batter. I've rarely seen it called, though.

Thanks.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Blueskyblue has probably got the picture that the feet must be wholly inside the lines before the pitch.

However I've never seen a penalty called for this violation... I, personally, have stopped play and if necessary drawn the inside line of the batter's box (6 inches from the plate) and informed the batter that he needs to start with all of his foot inside the line. I feel it is a safety issue and enforce this requirement before I allow play to continue.

Personally, I feel that this area between the plate and the batter's box is the pitcher's area to throw the ball. I don't expect the pitcher to get every pitch over the plate - there must be some latittude. In fact, a batter hit by a ball that is towards the plate from the vertical edge of the batter's box is likely not gong to get a base from me. If the batter is that confused about where he can stand, I'm probably going to call a strike. Hell, half of that 6 inches is the width of the ball.

Just my two bits... no offense TwoBits.