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Old Tue Oct 17, 2000, 12:11pm
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8.02(d) F1 shall not Intentionally Pitch at the Batter. If, in the umpire's judgment, circumstances warrant, both teams may be officially "warned" prior to the game or at any time during the game. (League Presidents may take additional action under authority provided in Rule 9.05) To pitch at a batter's head is unsportsmanlike and highly dangerous. It should be_and is_condemned by everybody. Umpires should act without hesitation in enforcement of this rule.

Most of us have seen "bean balls" on at least 2 occassions this year. The 1 involving Roger Clemens and Mike Piazza and last night involving Dave Veres and Jay Patton of the Mets. There were probably others througout the season as well.

The point: If I read the last part of 8.02(d), an umpire can eject F1 when a ball is thrown at a batter's head.
I have yet to see this happen this year.

IMO before someone gets seriously injured for life, the last part of rule 8.02(d) should read: It is an automatic ejection and probably should come with some sort of suspension as well.

Roger Clemens and Dave Veres should have been removed immediately and followed by at least a 2 or 3 game suspension (with loss of pay).

At the amateur level, this should be strictly enforced, because as most of us know it doesn't take much now-a-days to erupt teams have bedlam on our hands.

The message we want to send is UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES - THROW AT A BATTER'S HEAD.

Yes F1 in order to be an effective pitcher has to throw inside, but there are limits. There's nothing wrong with brushing a hitter back off the plate, but F1 can achieve that without going to the head area.

A PRO athlete KNOWS when they "are cheating" at the plate and should expect a brush back pitch - That's part of baseball - but not the Head area. Nothing wrong with busting one inside at the chest level.

I know why F1 does it - TO INTIMIDATE but there are other ways to imtimidate. Not trying to take out the Brush Back pitch but we need to stop pitcher's from throwing at the head area.

JMO


Pete Booth
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Old Tue Oct 17, 2000, 01:09pm
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Smile Could'nt agree more...

Pete,

Makes you wonder if the recent conviction of a well known hockey star is a precursor to what may come in baseball.

--Mario Fiermonte
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Old Tue Oct 17, 2000, 08:18pm
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Question

Question: Are we to try and judge what a pitcher's intent is when throwing at a batter's head, or just dump anyone who throws one up there for whatever reason? IMO there is no way Veres was intentionally throwing at Patton - there was no past history and nothing going on in the game that would dictate it. If we dump anyone who throws at a batter's head, we're going to send a lot of wild High School pitchers packing way too early... The rule allows us to dump a pitcher without warning, but we'd better be able to justify it - and in some cases hope the next pitcher isn't as wild as the one we just dumped!
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Old Tue Oct 17, 2000, 09:08pm
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Thumbs down

No way, no how, do not condone a pitcher throwing at a batter, regardless of the location it hits!
In the Mets / Cardinals game however, I did not feel at the time of the pitch; nor, after seeing the numerous replays that this pitch was intentional.
I was amazed at the constraint all parties present displayed, could have been real UGLY (uglier than me even!)
And, no ejections - good decision considering.
I've been at the plate twice when batter's got that deer in the headlight look, on pitches which got away. Both batter's got drill bad, but survived thankfully.
Not something I relish officiating during. If I even remotely thought a pitcher was throwing at a batter deliberately I'd put him on the other side of the fence real quickly.
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Old Wed Oct 18, 2000, 06:54am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by cmcallm
[B]Question: Are we to try and judge what a pitcher's intent is when throwing at a batter's head, or just dump anyone who throws one up there for whatever reason? IMO there is no way Veres was intentionally throwing at Patton - there was no past history and nothing going on in the game that would dictate it. If we dump anyone who throws at a batter's head, we're going to send a lot of wild High School pitchers packing way too early...

CMCALLM - The point I'm trying to make is: We do not want pitcher's throwing at the head area - PERIOD. If the rules stay the way they are - it's just a matter of time before, someone gets seriously injured for life or even killed.

When it comes to throwing at the head - Intent shouldn't even come into play. In football if a player grabs the facemask - does the referee ask - Did he intend to do it? - No, there is an automatic penalty assessed either 5 or 15 depending upon the severity of it.

If you examine the "bean balls" thrown by Clemens or Veres - who knows what would have happened if the pitch say hit the temple area of one's head.

If we dump anyone who throws at a batter's head, we're going to send a lot of wild High School pitchers packing way too early...
To that I say - TOO BAD - LEARN HOW TO PITCH. if they are that wild - try another position.


I'm not saying - Do not throw inside. As I mentioned in my orinial thread - F1 can bust a player inside (below the shoulder's) anytime he wants - but the Head area - Stay away and until a rule is put in -STRICTLY PROHIBITING THIS - I'm afraid there will be a real ugly incident someday.

I do not know about you but when F1 hits another player in the head area in my games - They are gone - I do not care about intent because in the Macho HS era we live in - Almost always there WILL BE retaliation and a brawl to follow.

F1 can do many things but stay away from the Head.

Pete Booth


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Old Wed Oct 18, 2000, 01:49pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Virginia Umpire
[B]Again I say we are not umpires for the Major Leagues.

Official Baseball Rules charge the umpire with judging intent. The OBR casebook cautions about throwing at a head in the same section as the rule.


Pete, your question that asks "are we to try to judge what a pitcher's intent is" seemed argumentative. Intent is part of the rule. We have to live with it.

As I said these are not professional players and the great majority of hit batters are accidents. So of course that isn't going to cause us to dump anyone who throws one up there as Pete argues.

Virginia Umpire - Football has gone to great lengths to protect the QB. The QB can now (if he is out of the pocket area) intentionally ground the ball. Also, any hit to the head area is an automatic 15. Run into the QB after he has released the ball - Personal Foul 15 yard penalty.

Why should baseball be different? Why allow F1 to throw at one's head in the first place. I think we all know (just a matter of time) when teams retaliate. It will be very interesting to see if Clemens pitches at Shea in the upcoming Subway Series.

The point: If there was a rule to begin with - the retaliation factor wouldn't come into play at all. Baseball, although not like football or Hockey is a contact sport if played the correct way - ie; breaking up a DP, busting a player inside (shoulders on down). I just can't see throwing at the head area.

During the interview with Piazza - he himself said he wouldn't have been that upset if Clemens "plunked" him in the chest area on down, but he was very upset at being "beaned". As I said earlier, the rule WILL change when someone's career (who is also a markee player such as Piazza) is jeopardized.


JMO

Pete Booth


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Old Wed Oct 18, 2000, 02:34pm
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Nowhere in my discussion do I suggest or advocate any pitcher throwing at a batter's head. As a matter of fact intentionally pitching at the batter is illegal in NCAA, FED, and Pro. I am not attempting to argue or suggest that it is legal or should be tolerated.

Pete, when you questioned how to judge intent, I gave some ideas on that subject. Although throwing at a batter is illegal, it does happen. I merly suggest that it is often intentional and the official needs to know when to expect it and how to recognize it.

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Old Wed Oct 18, 2000, 03:35pm
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Exclamation

Good job, Virginia Ump!
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Old Thu Oct 19, 2000, 07:13am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Virginia Umpire
[B]Nowhere in my discussion do I suggest or advocate any pitcher throwing at a batter's head. As a matter of fact intentionally pitching at the batter is illegal in NCAA, FED, and Pro. I am not attempting to argue or suggest that it is legal or should be tolerated.

Virginia Ump - this is the problem with the Keyboard medium - One cannot explain in words sometimes what they actually meant.

I apologize if I suggestd that you advocate throwing at one's head as that is not what I meant.

My point on this whole matter is IMO the rules need to be changed. Both Clemens and Veres remained in the game, but if another pitcher retaliated - THEY would be the one's who would have been tossed. That's unfair

I'm only suggesting that the rule ACTUALLY state - If F1 hits any batter in the head - they are IMMEDIATELY ejected from the game and could face possible suspension.

My analogy with football is that when one grabs the facemask - The referee does not judge intent. If a player merely grabs it and lets go immediately - 5 yards, but if they grab it and take down the runner - 15.

To summarize I'm just advocating putting the actually Ejection statement in the body of the rules. Presently, IMO it's too vague - Ok time to move on to another ubject matter and thanks for your comments

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