Foul Tip

[JRutledge]

I think they did not see it. But based on how many other things MLB umpires have seen across the field or what clearly was not there call; if they didn't see it that is odd to me at least. And I am not being critical saying that, just do not know why they would not see this. Better yet I am surprised that no coach or team member on the Cubs did not say a thing either, other than complete ignorance (surprise) of the rule.

Peace

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...if they didn't see it that is odd to me at least. And I am not being critical saying that, just do not know why they would not see this.

I can easily see why they would not see it. The ball's trajectory off the bat takes it pretty close to Yadi's mitt, at least from the gif video. It's not an obvious call where he goes down with the mitt on a low pitch, and the ball is then tipped and it hits his mask. U3 would be the only one who had an angle to tell, and it would still be too close to be sure.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I can easily see why they would not see it. The ball's trajectory off the bat takes it pretty close to Yadi's mitt, at least from the gif video. It's not an obvious call where he goes down with the mitt on a low pitch, and the ball is then tipped and it hits his mask. U3 would be the only one who had an angle to tell, and it would still be too close to be sure.

Fair enough. And my criticism is not that scathing, I just was surprised they missed this. All the other things they talk about, I was surprised someone did not save the crew.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Ditto on not watching the video (could not even follow the link), but to be a foul tip, it must first hit the glove or hand. If it first hits the mask, or protector, or thigh, then it's just a foul ball.

Where does it have to go to qualify as a fly ball that can be caught for an out? And is it possible to satisfy that criterion after hitting the catcher's body or equipment? Our gym teacher gave us a standard (6' over the catcher's head) that I've been told here was not correct.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Where does it have to go to qualify as a fly ball that can be caught for an out? And is it possible to satisfy that criterion after hitting the catcher's body or equipment? Our gym teacher gave us a standard (6' over the catcher's head) that I've been told here was not correct.

OBS - "A fly ball is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight".

NFHS - "A fly ball is a batted ball that rises an appreciable height above the ground."

NCAA - A batted ball that goes high in the air directly off the bat.

I think the NCAA definition using the word highlighted, answers your question for all codes. You, as the umpire, are to make the determination what "high in the air" or "appreciable height" means.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

And is it possible to satisfy that criterion after hitting the catcher's body or equipment? .

No.

2.00 A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s
hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught
is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Where does it have to go to qualify as a fly ball that can be caught for an out? And is it possible to satisfy that criterion after hitting the catcher's body or equipment? Our gym teacher gave us a standard (6' over the catcher's head) that I've been told here was not correct.

A ball doesn't have to be a fly ball to be caught for an out.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by jicecone

OBS - "A fly ball is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight".

NFHS - "A fly ball is a batted ball that rises an appreciable height above the ground."

NCAA - A batted ball that goes high in the air directly off the bat.

I think the NCAA definition using the word highlighted, answers your question for all codes. You, as the umpire, are to make the determination what "high in the air" or "appreciable height" means.

Then would it not be possible to line out to 1B or 3B if the catch is made in foul ground? Or...wait a minute...is it not possible to line out anywhere? But wait again...Matt wrote:

A ball doesn't have to be a fly ball to be caught for an out.

Ok, that's something of a relief. So what kinds of ball can be caught for an out? Are the criteria different in fair & foul ground? Or different for catchers from other players?

I'm looking at NCAA 7-11 now, and I don't see any provision for a catch of anything other than a fly ball or foul tip to make an out. Which does seem to mean you can't line out, fair or foul. Did they sneak it in someplace else?

The definition of "catch" is interesting too. When it says "the fielder does not use...any...part of the uniform in getting possession", does that mean only loose-fitting parts of the uniform that can extend a distance from the body, or does it include any cloth covering any of the player's skin, no matter how closely? And does "use" cover inadvertent deflections, or only deliberate use?

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Then would it not be possible to line out to 1B or 3B if the catch is made in foul ground? Or...wait a minute...is it not possible to line out anywhere? But wait again...Matt wrote:

Ok, that's something of a relief. So what kinds of ball can be caught for an out? Are the criteria different in fair & foul ground? Or different for catchers from other players?

I'm looking at NCAA 7-11 now, and I don't see any provision for a catch of anything other than a fly ball or foul tip to make an out. Which does seem to mean you can't line out, fair or foul. Did they sneak it in someplace else?

The definition of "catch" is interesting too. When it says "the fielder does not use...any...part of the uniform in getting possession", does that mean only loose-fitting parts of the uniform that can extend a distance from the body, or does it include any cloth covering any of the player's skin, no matter how closely? And does "use" cover inadvertent deflections, or only deliberate use?

I think they snuck it in. This leads me to believe if it could of qualified as a foul tip, but didn't hit the hand or glove, then it's a foul ball.

From OBR foul tip; the last sentence.

"It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first
touched the catcher’s glove or hand."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Ok, that's something of a relief. So what kinds of ball can be caught for an out? Are the criteria different in fair & foul ground? Or different for catchers from other players?

I'm looking at NCAA 7-11 now, and I don't see any provision for a catch of anything other than a fly ball or foul tip to make an out. Which does seem to mean you can't line out, fair or foul. Did they sneak it in someplace else?

The definition of "catch" is interesting too. When it says "the fielder does not use...any...part of the uniform in getting possession", does that mean only loose-fitting parts of the uniform that can extend a distance from the body, or does it include any cloth covering any of the player's skin, no matter how closely? And does "use" cover inadvertent deflections, or only deliberate use?

The key words in the "foul tip" definition are "sharp and direct". If it first hits the catcher's hand or glove, then it's a strike. If it hits the catcher or umpire first, then it's foul (and also not technical a "foul tip", but I digress).

Any other batted ball that's caught in flight is an out.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Then would it not be possible to line out to 1B or 3B if the catch is made in foul ground? Or...wait a minute...is it not possible to line out anywhere? But wait again...Matt wrote:

Ok, that's something of a relief. So what kinds of ball can be caught for an out? Are the criteria different in fair & foul ground? Or different for catchers from other players?

I'm looking at NCAA 7-11 now, and I don't see any provision for a catch of anything other than a fly ball or foul tip to make an out. Which does seem to mean you can't line out, fair or foul. Did they sneak it in someplace else?

The definition of "catch" is interesting too. When it says "the fielder does not use...any...part of the uniform in getting possession", does that mean only loose-fitting parts of the uniform that can extend a distance from the body, or does it include any cloth covering any of the player's skin, no matter how closely? And does "use" cover inadvertent deflections, or only deliberate use?

So if your trying to tell us that the rules are not always clear and can sometimes be outright confusing, YOUR RIGHT!

But, Dems Da Rules and sometimes you just have to umpire by prior interprtations and precedence and not logic, feelings or the way your local sportscaster thinks it should be.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by jicecone

So if your trying to tell us that the rules are not always clear and can sometimes be outright confusing, YOUR RIGHT!

No, not just that, but that the rules writers of at least OBR & NCAA have been evading fixing up an omission for many years. I can't believe nobody's called to their att'n the fact that the provision for a line out is missing.

[chapmaja]

The reason this likely was missed is simple. From the PU's point of view, it make have looked like it clipped the glove between when it left the bat and when it hit the catchers thigh. If it had hit the catchers glove, then the thigh and was subsequently controlled without touching the ground, it is a foul tip and thus strike 3 on the batter.

Looking at the play in slow motion, it looks like it might just clip the glove of the catcher going back. It certainly isn't a significant contact, but it might just graze the glove as it goes back, which satisfies the rule.

[chapmaja]

A third strike is legally caught by the catcher;
Rule 6.05(b) Comment: “Legally caught” means in the catcher’s glove before the ball
touches the ground. It is not legal if the ball lodges in his clothing or paraphernalia; or if it touches the
umpire and is caught by the catcher on the rebound.
If a foul tip first strikes the catcher’s glove and then goes on through and is caught by both
hands against his body or protector, before the ball touches the ground, it is a strike, and if third strike,
batter is out. If smothered against his body or protector, it is a catch provided the ball struck the
catcher’s glove or hand first.
(c)