NFHS courtsey runner intepretation

[Manny A]

If the rule states, "Neither the pitcher nor the catcher will be required to leave the game under such circumstances," I don't see how any interpreter can rightfully argue that the pitcher or catcher cannot bat for themselves the next time around the order in the same half-inning. That interpretation is in direct conflict with the statement because it actually forces the pitcher or catcher to leave the game should they come up to bat again.

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly, I not only think this is wrong ... but I believe that if the CR comes up to bat, he has, indeed, SUBSTITUTED for the catcher, as they are no longer a courtesy runner. This interp is a mess. How can the catcher not bat, they never left the game and are the next batter listed on the lineup card.

[PABlue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If the rule states, "Neither the pitcher nor the catcher will be required to leave the game under such circumstances," I don't see how any interpreter can rightfully argue that the pitcher or catcher cannot bat for themselves the next time around the order in the same half-inning. That interpretation is in direct conflict with the statement because it actually forces the pitcher or catcher to leave the game should they come up to bat again.

Now YOU call up NFHS and tell them they are wrong because they are not listening to PA.

[MD Longhorn]

We have some somewhat clouty people here (is that a word?) - maybe one of you guys can run it up the flagpole.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by PABlue

Now YOU call up NFHS and tell them they are wrong because they are not listening to PA.

Well, since I don't umpire NFHS baseball, they won't listen to me either.

Here's what you quoted in the OP as coming from "NFHS":

Originally Posted by PABlue

"Because once the CR replaced the catcher...

That's their first mistake. The CR did not "replace" anyone. He simply ran for the catcher as a courtesy runner. By "NFHS"'s own definition of Substitution (2-36, Article 1), a player who replaces another player in the line-up is considered a substitute. A CR is not a substitute because the pitcher or catcher they run for remain in the line-up. Their use of the word "replace" is careless.

Originally Posted by PABlue

...the catcher can not reenter for the CR in (that half-inning) Pg. 93 CR# 3.

"NFHS" is taking the language in CR#3 out of context. It is meant to apply only while the CR is still actively running for the catcher or pitcher, not the entire half-inning. Once the CR is done running the bases (because he either scored or was retired), he returns to the bench as a player not in the line-up. But somebody has to occupy that position in the batting order. It cannot be the CR since he was never a substitute, and since the CR rule says the catcher was not required to leave the game, that puts the original catcher back in that line-up spot.

Originally Posted by PABlue

Neither could the CR bat in that position due to the fact the CR can not be used in the same half-inning.

Again, very careless language. The CR can be used in the same half-inning...as a CR again!

Originally Posted by PABlue

Therefore, the team would have to use a pinch hitter until the half-inning is over".

So, this convoluted argument results in the original catcher being required to leave the game when a CR ran for him, which is in direct conflict with the CR rule.

Nice try, "NFHS". Play again some other time.

[DG]

I think it very safe to say that if the team bats around, and catcher reaches base both times, a CR will be sent out both times (likely same one) and no one will say a word.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by DG

I think it very safe to say that if the team bats around, and catcher reaches base both times, a CR will be sent out both times (likely same one) and no one will say a word.

Better be the same one unless the previous CR has been substituted into the game.

[Mrumpiresir]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

Better be the same one unless the previous CR has been substituted into the game.

Could be anyone who has not yet participated in the game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

Better be the same one unless the previous CR has been substituted into the game.

First, it need not be the same one, and second, the "first CR" can't be substituted into the game in that half inning (barring injury or ejection).

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

First, it need not be the same one, and second, the "first CR" can't be substituted into the game in that half inning (barring injury or ejection).

True. Sometimes fingers type before brain fully engages.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DG

I think it very safe to say that if the team bats around, and catcher reaches base both times, a CR will be sent out both times (likely same one) and no one will say a word.

Wholeheartedly agree.

But that's not the gist of this discussion. Someone nameless at NFHS HQ is saying that once a pitcher or catcher is removed from the bases for a CR, that pitcher or catcher cannot bat again in the same half-inning. It's a bogus ruling based upon an erroneous interpretation of a case play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Wholeheartedly agree.

But that's not the gist of this discussion. Someone nameless at NFHS HQ is saying that once a pitcher or catcher is removed from the bases for a CR, that pitcher or catcher cannot bat again in the same half-inning. It's a bogus ruling based upon an erroneous interpretation of a case play.

That nameless someone at NFHS Headquarters is none other that Elliot Hopkins the NFHS Baseball Rules Editor. The buck stops with him.

MTD, Sr.

[Dexter555]

PABlue, do you know how this question even came up? I've seen this happen numerous times--more at JV than varsity, but no one ever thought twice that the catcher or pitcher wouldn't bat in their spot in the order if they batted around. To me it seems that someone misinterpreted the CR rule (as cited multiple times above), sent some strange badly worded question to NFHS and they responded very badly--at least as the consensus here seems to believe.

If I had ever been challenged by a coach I can't imagine not rolling my eyes and saying, "It's a CR coach, not a sub." If I was feeling chatty I might say, "Just because there is a rule about CR eligibility doesn't change the rule." But it's never happened to me, so I'm back to wondering about how it came up in the first place.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DG

I think it very safe to say that if the team bats around, and catcher reaches base both times, a CR will be sent out both times (likely same one) and no one will say a word.

Logically, I agree with you 100%. The problem we're discussing here is that the word from on high disagrees with you (and me).

[Dexter555]

I've been thinking about this one today. "CR 8 Situation: The coach of Team A sends out a courtesy runner for F1 and fails to report the change to the UIC. Ruling: Upon entering the game, the CR became an official substitute. There is no penalty. F1 has been replaced and may only return if he has re-entry eligibility. Since Team A's coach did not inform the umpire that the substitute was a CR for F1, the umpire shall treat the change as a normal substitution. Therefore, F1 is out of the game."

So if F1 is out of the game only because the CR wasn't reported as a CR, then logic would dictate that in PABlue's scenario, F2 isn't out of the game and therefore can hit again in the same inning (of course if the CR was properly reported).

But further, the whole NFHS interpretation is stupid. If F2 has been replaced, he can only re-enter once. If they courtesy run for him again, by their logic he is out of the game for good. And I would argue that if they pinch hit for him because of that interpretation, he has NOW officially been replaced and can only re-enter once.