LLWS - Championship

[Rich]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

I thought that was a fairly standard thing, although myself and most others I know would say "ball, no he didn't"

"Ball. No, he didn't go."

I say this every time I have a check swing where I judge the batter didn't offer. Means nothing other than I thought he didn't go. Isn't meant to give a message to anyone other than that.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich

"Ball. No, he didn't go."

I say this every time I have a check swing where I judge the batter didn't offer. Means nothing other than I thought he didn't go. Isn't meant to give a message to anyone other than that.

I was recently taught to not say anything but "Ball." If you say something afterward like, "He didn't go," or "No he didn't," then you're definitively stating that you saw no swing, and you shouldn't subsequently go for help when asked.

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I was recently taught to not say anything but "Ball." If you say something afterward like, "He didn't go," or "No he didn't," then you're definitively stating that you saw no swing, and you shouldn't subsequently go for help when asked.

Correct, I am definitively stating that I saw no swing, because I didn't. You first need to judge the pitch as it pertains to the zone (you have a ball), and then you need to determine if he swung (he didn't). Why hide the fact that you think he didn't go? If U1/U3 turn it over and say he did, no big deal.

Anyways, NCAA 3.6.f says get help when they ask, so I'm asking if they're asking. "ball, no he didn't" - "can you check?" - "Bob, did he go?" - "yes he did" - "ok we have a 2-2 count here" -- simple.

If I didn't definitively know, I'd check with a base umpire right away.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

Correct, I am definitively stating that I saw no swing, because I didn't. You first need to judge the pitch as it pertains to the zone (you have a ball), and then you need to determine if he swung (he didn't). Why hide the fact that you think he didn't go? If U1/U3 turn it over and say he did, no big deal.

Anyways, NCAA 3.6.f says get help when they ask, so I'm asking if they're asking. "ball, no he didn't" - "can you check?" - "Bob, did he go?" - "yes he did" - "ok we have a 2-2 count here" -- simple.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it shouldn't be a big deal. It's just what I've been recently told.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I was recently taught to not say anything but "Ball." If you say something afterward like, "He didn't go," or "No he didn't," then you're definitively stating that you saw no swing, and you shouldn't subsequently go for help when asked.

This is not the professional teaching, unless it changed recently.

And besides, in OBR/NCAA you *must* go for help when asked, regardless of what you say on the check swing.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich

And besides, in OBR/NCAA you *must* go for help when asked, regardless of what you say on the check swing.

And yet I sometimes see in MLB games where the PU won't go to a partner after the catcher asks. What is taught and what is practiced isn't always the same.

It just made sense to me when I heard it. If you must go for help when asked, then don't bother with anything more than "Ball" so that you're not opening the door to potential comments over your judgment. And it falls in line with the philosophy of one umpire not overruling another. You say, "No he didn't," and then your partner says, "Yes, he did," just sounds like two siblings pointing fingers over a broken vase.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich

"Ball. No, he didn't go."

I say this every time I have a check swing where I judge the batter didn't offer. Means nothing other than I thought he didn't go. Isn't meant to give a message to anyone other than that.

Doesn't saying "ball" cover it? That would, after all, be the definition of "ball."

We don't say, "out, fielder had possession of the ball while in contact with the base prior to the forced runner contacting the base."

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Doesn't saying "ball" cover it? That would, after all, be the definition of "ball."

It covers it in the same way as just calling a runner "safe" at first base even though the ball beat him by two steps and the first baseman pulled his foot. In both cases, you have a call and an extra piece of information that saves or at least redirects the followup.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

It covers it in the same way as just calling a runner "safe" at first base even though the ball beat him by two steps and the first baseman pulled his foot. In both cases, you have a call and an extra piece of information that saves or at least redirects the followup.

This is a bit of apples and oranges, or at least two different types of apples.

On a pulled foot, you're saying that, "but for the pulled foot, the runner would have been out." It's also communicating something that not everyone may have seen.

When you say "ball" it means that the pitch didn't enter the strike zone and, in the very least, you don't believe the batter swung. When you say, "ball, no he didn't," you are definitively stating that the batter did not swing. To me, there is a huge difference. As a coach, if the base umpire then said, "yes, he swung" I would go out and say to the plate umpire, "you said he didn't swing and the base umpire said he did swing, so now we're at 50/50. So why is it a swing?" If he says, "well, I wasn't sure if he swung," I would say, "then why did you specifically and definitively stated, "no swing?" Then I would likely either hear "they told me to" or I hear crickets chirping.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

As a coach, if the base umpire then said, "yes, he swung" I would go out and say to the plate umpire, "you said he didn't swing and the base umpire said he did swing, so now we're at 50/50. So why is it a swing?" If he says, "well, I wasn't sure if he swung," I would say, "then why did you specifically and definitively stated, "no swing?" Then I would likely either hear "they told me to" or I hear crickets chirping.

He shouldn't say that - he should say "By rule, plate umpires are to ask for help from the base umpire when asked on a checked swing, at which point the call becomes the base umpire's call." Done.

[dash_riprock]

If I am 100% sure about a non-swing, I will - confidently - verbalize it. "Ball -no swing!" or something similar. I am telling my partner (pre-gamed) that I had a real good look at it, and I'm sure he didn't go. If he wants to change my call, that's fine with me, but (as BU) I would have to see pretty much a full swing before I would consider ringing it up.

As for the coach coming out, the response is simple: "We're not discussing balls and strikes."

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

He shouldn't say that - he should say "By rule, plate umpires are to ask for help from the base umpire when asked on a checked swing, at which point the call becomes the base umpire's call." Done.

Except for FED.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Doesn't saying "ball" cover it? That would, after all, be the definition of "ball."

We don't say, "out, fielder had possession of the ball while in contact with the base prior to the forced runner contacting the base."

It communicates that I saw the bat move and that I judged it wasn't enough to consider it an offer.

I'm amazed at how many people act as if this isn't mainstream. This is the passage directly from the PBUC manual:

"All decisions on checked swings shall be called loudly and clearly by the plate umpire. If the pitch is a ball and the batter does not swing at the pitch, the mechanic to be used by the plate umpire is: "Ball; No he didn't go." If the pitch is a ball but the batter commits on the check swing, the mechanic to be used is: "Yes, he went," while pointing directly at the batter and then coming up with the strike motion."

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich

It communicates that I saw the bat move and that I judged it wasn't enough to consider it an offer.

I'm amazed at how many people act as if this isn't mainstream. This is the passage directly from the PBUC manual:

"All decisions on checked swings shall be called loudly and clearly by the plate umpire. If the pitch is a ball and the batter does not swing at the pitch, the mechanic to be used by the plate umpire is: "Ball; No he didn't go." If the pitch is a ball but the batter commits on the check swing, the mechanic to be used is: "Yes, he went," while pointing directly at the batter and then coming up with the strike motion."

I think that it is a poor and unnecessary mechanic. In the very least, it is an overused and abused mechanic.

Define a checked swing for us. Not that I would use the LLWS umpires as a benchmark, but they were saying "Yes, he did" on "checked swings" where the batter clearly went. If there is a follow through, regardless of how weak it is, it's not a checked swing. A checked swing would require opposite torque in an effort not to complete the swing, no?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I think that it is a poor and unnecessary mechanic. In the very least, it is an overused and abused mechanic.

I'll go with the professionals on this one.

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

If I am 100% sure about a non-swing, I will - confidently - verbalize it. "Ball -no swing!" or something similar. I am telling my partner (pre-gamed) that I had a real good look at it, and I'm sure he didn't go. If he wants to change my call, that's fine with me, but (as BU) I would have to see pretty much a full swing before I would consider ringing it up.

As for the coach coming out, the response is simple: "We're not discussing balls and strikes."

You could pregame this with me till the cows come home -- once you come to me, it's now my call to make -- and I'll do it the way I always do -- I make an instant judgment on every check swing and if the PU comes to me, he gets exactly what I have.

Your method smells too much like the secret signals of the 1980s where the plate guy would tell the base umpire what he wanted him to call. Quite frankly, I'm delighted every time the base umpire calls a strike on a check swing:

(1) I like strikes.
(2) If there's heat, it's all on him, not me.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

This is a bit of apples and oranges, or at least two different types of apples.

On a pulled foot, you're saying that, "but for the pulled foot, the runner would have been out." It's also communicating something that not everyone may have seen.

When you say "ball" it means that the pitch didn't enter the strike zone and, in the very least, you don't believe the batter swung. When you say, "ball, no he didn't," you are definitively stating that the batter did not swing. To me, there is a huge difference. As a coach, if the base umpire then said, "yes, he swung" I would go out and say to the plate umpire, "you said he didn't swing and the base umpire said he did swing, so now we're at 50/50. So why is it a swing?" If he says, "well, I wasn't sure if he swung," I would say, "then why did you specifically and definitively stated, "no swing?" Then I would likely either hear "they told me to" or I hear crickets chirping.

I've been saying "Ball; No, he didn't go" since I started umpiring in the 1980s. I've never, not at any level, had a single coach say anything to me or my partner on this mechanic whatsoever.

To me, it's communicating that I saw the bat move and, in my judgment, the batter didn't offer. It's not much different than a foul tip mechanic -- at times it's completely unnecessary (full swing, for example) -- but at times it's useful (on a check swing foul tip). At times, I think me saying, No, he didn't go" dissuades a catcher/coach from asking and I'm not unhappy when that happens. When they ask anyway, I'm happy to ask my partner (and even more thrilled when he rings up the strike).