fair or foul

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

F1 had the ball BR was in the batters box PU was standing on the third baseline pointing fair and no one is doing anything. You tell me how to handle it ??? I know it never happens, but this play did happen. Please tell me what you would do. I agree do not verbalize FAIR BALLS but there are things that happen that have to be managed.This was a very good Umpire and has no problem getting good assignments. I really have a hard time with the way some people on this forum think that we live in a perfect world and that there is a black and white rule or mechanic for every game. I just talked with the State Interpreter and working 5000 plus games he said he had to say "Ball is in play" does that make anyone happy ??

You stand to the side (not where PU stands for a pitch), point fair, and wait. If the players don't catch on, a coach or parent will eventually.

And this is not TWP at all - yours is not the first time this has happened in the history of baseball. Most of us have probably seen this 50 times, especially when working with the younger or less experienced groups ... but I've seen it once in high school ball. It happens. DO NOT YELL FAIR.

(You called your STATE INTERPRETER over this. Wow. I have no words.)

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You stand to the side (not where PU stands for a pitch), point fair, and wait. If the players don't catch on, a coach or parent will eventually.

And this is not TWP at all - yours is not the first time this has happened in the history of baseball. Most of us have probably seen this 50 times, especially when working with the younger or less experienced groups ... but I've seen it once in high school ball. It happens. DO NOT YELL FAIR.

(You called your STATE INTERPRETER over this. Wow. I have no words.)

I am sorry, next time I will contact you. I work very closely with my State Interpreter, my ASA UIC and even some wanna be district coordinators . Wow, I did not know just go on the forum where all of the experts are, behind a fake name with an I am correct and you are wrong BS.

[bob jenkins]

In most areas, there's a differemce between "I went to a guy I work with who happens to be a state interpreter" and "I went to a state interpreter".

[xtremeump]

I would like to protest, for mis interpretation of Forum rules. Sorry I will never mess that one up again.

[chapmaja]

I actually had this play happen last summer in a 1st grade coach pitch game. Bases loaded, 2 outs, bottom of the 6th inning with the home team down 1 run. Coach pitches the ball poorly and it hits the bat, not the player as everyone though, and drops right down on the plate. I point fair and nobody moves. I'm just standing there when the catching assistant (a coach or parent allowed behind the catch to grab passed balls and return them to the opposing coach (pitcher)) tells the catcher to pick up the ball.

Finally after about 3 times being told what to do, and me with my arm getting tired pointing fair for about 15 seconds, the catcher stands up reaches down and picks the ball up off home plate. I signal out, and the home coach isn't happy. I had to take about 10 minutes to explain that the ball hit the bat, not the batter, and it fell onto the plate untouched which made it a fair ball. He then argued I should have said "fair ball". Finally he argued that it couldn't be a force out at the plate since the catchers feet were not touching the plate. The response to that was that when he picked the ball off the plate he gained possession of the ball with the ball touching the plate, therefore he was legally in possession of the ball while the ball was touching the plate, thus since the force was on, it is a force out.

Several parents filed letters of complaint with the rec league, so I had to go to a "stupid waste of time meeting" with my bosses boss over the call. He himself is a former umpire and was the one who called the meeting a "stupid waste of time". Oh well, I got paid for the meeting and got the call correct. Not to mention I got to rest my arm after pointing fair for at least 15 seconds hoping someone would see it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

F1 had the ball BR was in the batters box PU was standing on the third baseline pointing fair and no one is doing anything. You tell me how to handle it ??? I know it never happens, but this play did happen. Please tell me what you would do. I agree do not verbalize FAIR BALLS but there are things that happen that have to be managed.This was a very good Umpire and has no problem getting good assignments. I really have a hard time with the way some people on this forum think that we live in a perfect world and that there is a black and white rule or mechanic for every game. I just talked with the State Interpreter and working 5000 plus games he said he had to say "Ball is in play" does that make anyone happy ??

With all due respect, your State Interpreter is: WRONG! WRONG! WRONG1

All rule sets, both baseball and fast pitch softball, the mechanic is the same: Point and verbalizes FOUL! And point FAIR!

Keeping pointing FAIR until someone gets it. A few years ago I had a USSSA girls' 12U fast pitch tournament game where I was the PU and the batter laid down a bunt that backspinned onto HP and stopped there. I pointed FAIR while the B/R and F2 just stared at the ball. Finally the B/R started runner toward 1B while F2 continued to look at the ball and then look at me while I kept pointing toward FAIR territory. The B/R made it to 1B before F2 finally picked up the ball and wanted to hand it to me.

Now the Defensive HC comes out and started to complain that I didn't tell his F2 that the ball was FAIR; keep in mind that not once did he yell to his F2 to pick up the ball and throw it to F3 at 1B. I told D-HC that I had in deed told his F2 that the ball was FAIR; I kept pointing toward FAIR territory. He proceeded that I was supposed to verbalize the word FAIR to which I told him no I am not. I also reminded him that all batted balls are FAIR unless the Umpires verbally state that they are FOUL. He then told me that his players didn't know that and that I should have taken that into consideration. I told him that no competent Umpire would do what he asked me to do and that players should be taught to play the ball until they hear the Umpires call FOUL, DEAD, or TIME. End of discussion.

Your State Interpreter needs to remember what I have highlighted in red.

MTD, Sr.

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

With all due respect, your State Interpreter is: WRONG! WRONG! WRONG1

All rule sets, both baseball and fast pitch softball, the mechanic is the same: Point and verbalizes FOUL! And point FAIR!

Keeping pointing FAIR until someone gets it. A few years ago I had a USSSA girls' 12U fast pitch tournament game where I was the PU and the batter laid down a bunt that backspinned onto HP and stopped there. I pointed FAIR while the B/R and F2 just stared at the ball. Finally the B/R started runner toward 1B while F2 continued to look at the ball and then look at me while I kept pointing toward FAIR territory. The B/R made it to 1B before F2 finally picked up the ball and wanted to hand it to me.

Now the Defensive HC comes out and started to complain that I didn't tell his F2 that the ball was FAIR; keep in mind that not once did he yell to his F2 to pick up the ball and throw it to F3 at 1B. I told D-HC that I had in deed told his F2 that the ball was FAIR; I kept pointing toward FAIR territory. He proceeded that I was supposed to verbalize the word FAIR to which I told him no I am not. I also reminded him that all batted balls are FAIR unless the Umpires verbally state that they are FOUL. He then told me that his players didn't know that and that I should have taken that into consideration. I told him that no competent Umpire would do what he asked me to do and that players should be taught to play the ball until they hear the Umpires call FOUL, DEAD, or TIME. End of discussion.

Your State Interpreter needs to remember what I have highlighted in red.

MTD, Sr.

Thank you very much for letting me down gently, I know what to do and teach now. I am very sorry if I offended anyone but I will say that I let myself down on this one. Thank you for the wake up call. Ump to Live, Live to Ump. Please do not let my wife know, she still thinks I am correct all of the time.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

players should be taught to play the ball until they hear the Umpires call FOUL, DEAD, or TIME. End of discussion.

An umpire should never call DEAD (ball). Time and Foul are the only words used to kill the ball.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

An umpire should never call DEAD (ball). Time and Foul are the only words used to kill the ball.

The state clinician (NFHS) in my most recent clinic disagrees with you. So do some rulebooks, actually - caseplays that end with "the umpire shall rule the ball dead." (or "rule a dead ball")

"TIME" is for stopping play for a conference requested by a coach or for killing play prior to a pitch. Or in LL machine pitch, ruling the play over when the ball reaches a circle.
"Dead Ball" is used when something during play (runner interference, bat hits ball a 2nd time, ball goes out of play, etc) kills the play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

"Dead Ball" is used when something during play (runner interference, bat hits ball a 2nd time, ball goes out of play, etc) kills the play.

Go to a college or pro clinic and they will stop this practice.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Go to a college or pro clinic and they will stop this practice.

At that level, I agree with you. I did state NFHS and LL in my reply (and that applies to most orgs below MLB / MiLB / NCAA)

As in most things, we do what our supervisors want.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

As in most things, we do what our supervisors want.

Especially if we want to continue to working for them.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

At that level, I agree with you. I did state NFHS and LL in my reply (and that applies to most orgs below MLB / MiLB / NCAA)

As in most things, we do what our supervisors want.

What would you do if your supervisor wanted you to yell "Steeerike three yer out!" and jerk your thumb skyward on a swinging 3rd strike? Calling dead ball is equivalent to that.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

What would you do if your supervisor wanted you to yell "Steeerike three yer out!" and jerk your thumb skyward on a swinging 3rd strike? Calling dead ball is equivalent to that.

Well ... if my STATE supervisor said that... I'd do it. Not that he would. Then again, if he said to do it, and everyone did it ... would it still be weird?

If my local guy told us to use a mechanic so bad I had an issue with it, I'd probably mention it to the next guy up the chain (honestly ... someone else would before me, in all likelihood), and it would get fixed.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Go to a college or pro clinic and they will stop this practice.

I've been to both. Guess what? They didn't stop it.

Granted, it was on a very few possible plays, such as a drag bunt, the ball hits B1, & PU is blocked.