Ground rules question

[jicecone]

At a pre-game conference, I have seen to many times where everyone shakes their heads and then something like this happens and it still questionable what was said in the pre-game. In an area as discussed, it should be clearly obvious that when the ball goes in dead-ball territory, it is a dead ball and book rules apply accordingly.

I always mention at the plate, "if the ball goes under the fence or in the tarp, or any other dead ball area , tell your OF's to put up their hands , we will let the play continue and complete. We will then go out and make a determination of the award if any".

Now, do the coaches explain that to the OF's, I don't know, but it pays to make sure everyone understands the ground rules.

In Carl Childress's book, "151 ways to Ruin a Baseball Game", this is No. 1.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I always mention at the plate, "if the ball goes under the fence or in the tarp, or any other dead ball area , tell your OF's to put up their hands , we will let the play continue and complete. We will then go out and make a determination of the award if any".

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

This is pretty much a standard instruction that umpires give at plate conferences when games are played on fields that aren't completely enclosed with permanent fencing. I've never heard anyone--until now--say that this is a form of coaching.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by Manny A

This is pretty much a standard instruction that umpires give at plate conferences when games are played on fields that aren't completely enclosed with permanent fencing. I've never heard anyone--until now--say that this is a form of coaching.

That is the sometimes the instruction that I hear coaches say when they are going over the ground rules at their park. I don't have any problem with coach saying this.

If we're playing lower level games and I am giving the ground rules, I don't think its necessary for me to say this. If a ball rolls under a fence, outfielders have a way of communicating that they can't play the ball. I don't feel the need to instruct the coaches to instruct their players to throw up their arms.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bluehair

That is the sometimes the instruction that I hear coaches say when they are going over the ground rules at their park. I don't have any problem with coach saying this.

If we're playing lower level games and I am giving the ground rules, I don't think its necessary for me to say this. If a ball rolls under a fence, outfielders have a way of communicating that they can't play the ball. I don't feel the need to instruct the coaches to instruct their players to throw up their arms.

And I don't feel the need to discuss what, or what was not, discussed at the pre-game, again during the game.

Are we clear?

[legend]

the only problem that I've seen with this happened last year in a H.S. jv game(I wasn't on the game, just there watching a friends kid play). The ball was hit to the base of the outfield fence and with runners rounding the bases the outfielder put his hands up to say that he thought that the ball was "dead" The offense kept running eventually clearing the bases, at which time the base umpire judged that the ball indeed was still live and not dead, and all runs stood. Needless to say the defense was upset cause they let 2 or 3 runs score. How should have this been handled, was it done correctly?

[DG]

Originally Posted by legend

the only problem that I've seen with this happened last year in a H.S. jv game(I wasn't on the game, just there watching a friends kid play). The ball was hit to the base of the outfield fence and with runners rounding the bases the outfielder put his hands up to say that he thought that the ball was "dead" The offense kept running eventually clearing the bases, at which time the base umpire judged that the ball indeed was still live and not dead, and all runs stood. Needless to say the defense was upset cause they let 2 or 3 runs score. How should have this been handled, was it done correctly?

Offense did what they should do. If the outfielder thought the ball was stuck then he was wrong as BU determined.

I had one Saturday, bases loaded, fly ball ball hit over CF head to base of fence, F8 runs to it and then threw up his hands, runners keep running since I did not call time ( I am BU ). F8, after throwing his hands up immediately reached down and picked up the ball, rather easily it seemed to me. Then he fell down with the ball, long story short, all runners and the batter scored, 4 runs.

So coach comes to me and says his player threw up his hands, I say I saw that but then I saw him reach down and pick up the ball rather easily. I tell him if he is going to throw up his hands because he thinks the ball is stuck then he needs to walk away and let me go out and check and if I agree we will rule accordingly, but since he did not give me that chance, and he picked it up easily it must not have been stuck.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by legend

the only problem that I've seen with this happened last year in a H.S. jv game(I wasn't on the game, just there watching a friends kid play). The ball was hit to the base of the outfield fence and with runners rounding the bases the outfielder put his hands up to say that he thought that the ball was "dead" The offense kept running eventually clearing the bases, at which time the base umpire judged that the ball indeed was still live and not dead, and all runs stood. Needless to say the defense was upset cause they let 2 or 3 runs score. How should have this been handled, was it done correctly?

I don't wait until all runners have circled the bases. When I see outfielders indicate that the ball has gone out of play, I try to make eye contact with my partner, point that I'm going out, run to where I can see (or not see the ball) and call time, if the ball is OOP (signal safe, if in play...never had one of those).

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by jicecone

And I don't feel the need to discuss what, or what was not, discussed at the pre-game, again during the game.

Are we clear?

Since you quoted me, I guess you were asking me that question. No, we are not clear. I have no earthly idea what you were saying.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bluehair

Since you quoted me, I guess you were asking me that question. No, we are not clear. I have no earthly idea what you were saying.

Most of the time the reasons that there is discussions after the play has taken place , it is because it was not made "clear" at the pre-game. Asking the coaches to have their players raise their arms indicating the ball is unplayable, so we can come out to verify that is the option the coaches chooses to do or not to do. But, I have made it perfectly clear at the pre-game what I am going to do, so we don't need to discuss it again.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

What are you talking about?

I really don't care if the coach tells his players to stick there hands where the sun don't shine. Putting your hands up is a form of commmunication that has be acceptable in the sport for years. However, maybe your suggesting that to keep up with the times, the player should now take out his phone and text the coach who will call time and relay the message to the umpires on the field.

Would that me more appropriate in your world?

"Realistic officiating does the sport good."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

Like Manny said, this is pretty standard stuff across the country.

If you, personally, feel it crosses that coaching line, then simply phrase it differently. "If your fielders raise their hands to indicate it's out of play, we will come out to check it." Something along those lines.