Ground rules question

[legend]

the only problem that I've seen with this happened last year in a H.S. jv game(I wasn't on the game, just there watching a friends kid play). The ball was hit to the base of the outfield fence and with runners rounding the bases the outfielder put his hands up to say that he thought that the ball was "dead" The offense kept running eventually clearing the bases, at which time the base umpire judged that the ball indeed was still live and not dead, and all runs stood. Needless to say the defense was upset cause they let 2 or 3 runs score. How should have this been handled, was it done correctly?

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by jicecone

And I don't feel the need to discuss what, or what was not, discussed at the pre-game, again during the game.

Are we clear?

Since you quoted me, I guess you were asking me that question. No, we are not clear. I have no earthly idea what you were saying.

[DG]

Originally Posted by legend

the only problem that I've seen with this happened last year in a H.S. jv game(I wasn't on the game, just there watching a friends kid play). The ball was hit to the base of the outfield fence and with runners rounding the bases the outfielder put his hands up to say that he thought that the ball was "dead" The offense kept running eventually clearing the bases, at which time the base umpire judged that the ball indeed was still live and not dead, and all runs stood. Needless to say the defense was upset cause they let 2 or 3 runs score. How should have this been handled, was it done correctly?

Offense did what they should do. If the outfielder thought the ball was stuck then he was wrong as BU determined.

I had one Saturday, bases loaded, fly ball ball hit over CF head to base of fence, F8 runs to it and then threw up his hands, runners keep running since I did not call time ( I am BU ). F8, after throwing his hands up immediately reached down and picked up the ball, rather easily it seemed to me. Then he fell down with the ball, long story short, all runners and the batter scored, 4 runs.

So coach comes to me and says his player threw up his hands, I say I saw that but then I saw him reach down and pick up the ball rather easily. I tell him if he is going to throw up his hands because he thinks the ball is stuck then he needs to walk away and let me go out and check and if I agree we will rule accordingly, but since he did not give me that chance, and he picked it up easily it must not have been stuck.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by legend

the only problem that I've seen with this happened last year in a H.S. jv game(I wasn't on the game, just there watching a friends kid play). The ball was hit to the base of the outfield fence and with runners rounding the bases the outfielder put his hands up to say that he thought that the ball was "dead" The offense kept running eventually clearing the bases, at which time the base umpire judged that the ball indeed was still live and not dead, and all runs stood. Needless to say the defense was upset cause they let 2 or 3 runs score. How should have this been handled, was it done correctly?

I don't wait until all runners have circled the bases. When I see outfielders indicate that the ball has gone out of play, I try to make eye contact with my partner, point that I'm going out, run to where I can see (or not see the ball) and call time, if the ball is OOP (signal safe, if in play...never had one of those).

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bluehair

Since you quoted me, I guess you were asking me that question. No, we are not clear. I have no earthly idea what you were saying.

Most of the time the reasons that there is discussions after the play has taken place , it is because it was not made "clear" at the pre-game. Asking the coaches to have their players raise their arms indicating the ball is unplayable, so we can come out to verify that is the option the coaches chooses to do or not to do. But, I have made it perfectly clear at the pre-game what I am going to do, so we don't need to discuss it again.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bluehair

I don't wait until all runners have circled the bases. When I see outfielders indicate that the ball has gone out of play, I try to make eye contact with my partner, point that I'm going out, run to where I can see (or not see the ball) and call time, if the ball is OOP (signal safe, if in play...never had one of those).

I guess that is your style however, what difference does it make when you go out?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I guess that is your style however, what difference does it make when you go out?

If it happens quickly enough, and you judge that the ball is still in play, maybe the defense can hold the batter to a triple.

In most situations involving HS or college players and older (slower than the players) umpires, the batter will have circled the bases by the time the umpire can see the ball still in play and the fielder can throw the ball back in.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If it happens quickly enough, and you judge that the ball is still in play, maybe the defense can hold the batter to a triple.

In most situations involving HS or college players and older (slower than the players) umpires, the batter will have circled the bases by the time the umpire can see the ball still in play and the fielder can throw the ball back in.

If I were a betting man, I would guess this would be possible 1 out of maybe 50-60 times. The ball is hit to the fence and the fielder raises his hands. The BU then reacts and heads for the outfield (lets say 200 ft away) and has to get close enough to make a good decision, then the OF has to reacte and get the ball to the infield. Hmmm, now that I have replayed it in my mind........

I will change those odds to 1 out of a 100. Not realistic.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Most of the time the reasons that there is discussions after the play has taken place , it is because it was not made "clear" at the pre-game.

I can't imagine a game time discussion on this matter being any more than a coach that just gave up runs whining. And do you really think that any coach is going to leave your plate meeting and pass on your communication directions to his outfielders.

Originally Posted by jicecone

I guess that is your style however, what difference does it make when you go out?

Batter hits one to the fence, outfielder thinks that ball is OOP, I decide whether ball is in play or not, ASAP. I don't have to assume that the fielder is trying to pull a fast one. If he is, then I may not give the indication as quickly as I might otherwise.

Originally Posted by jicecone

If I were a betting man, I would guess this would be possible 1 out of maybe 50-60 times. The ball is hit to the fence and the fielder raises his hands. The BU then reacts and heads for the outfield (lets say 200 ft away) and has to get close enough to make a good decision, then the OF has to reacte and get the ball to the infield. Hmmm, now that I have replayed it in my mind........

I will change those odds to 1 out of a 100. Not realistic.

Surely I am not the only 1.

[jicecone]

Hey, if it works for your games thats cool!

Next year when we all get to MLB and work the parks that they don't have to worry about this crap, we can sit around after the game and laugh about these discussions over a beer.

Enjoy the Season.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If it happens quickly enough, and you judge that the ball is still in play, maybe the defense can hold the batter to a triple.

Nah. If the fielder throws his hands up and it turns out the ball stayed in play, then he deserves not having the opportunity to get the ball back in and holding the batter at third.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Rich

I cringe when people say "if the player keeps playing it, it's live..."

Are those the same guys who see the need to itemize all twenty-nine places in the fence where a ball might possibly leave the field of play?

[MD Longhorn]

I find it ironic that one person is smacked down for hurrying out to check out a live ball in the outfield when the fielder puts his hands up, and another is smacked down for saying that if the fielder is playing it, it's live. Can't really smack down both of these, can we?

Personally, if a fielder throws up his hands and I cannot determine the ball's status from where I already am, I'm going out. The whole reason we go out is to make an accurate ruling on something we could not rule accurately on from the infield --- so it is completely consistent with that to go immediately check it out when this happens. It may very well be that one poster was correct that 99/100 of these will indeed be ruled blocked/stuck/dead/whatever. But I see no purpose in waiting to go out, whether it's the 99 of 100 or the 1 of 100.

I also agree that if the player is playing it, I'm assuming it's playable - and sticking with my "normal" responsibilities. I actually find it rather bizarre that Rich had a problem with that... are you suggesting that you would head out to the outfield to check it out even if the outfielder is playing the ball? Seems odd.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I also agree that if the player is playing it, I'm assuming it's playable - and sticking with my "normal" responsibilities. I actually find it rather bizarre that Rich had a problem with that... are you suggesting that you would head out to the outfield to check it out even if the outfielder is playing the ball? Seems odd.

That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about the morons who point out the dead-ball areas (e.g., a bullpen bench) where a ball is reachable, but not easily, or out-of-play areas with readily discernible demarcation lines. They utter nonsense like, "If the ball goes in there, have the players throw up their hands and we'll kill it, but if they play it, we're keeping it live." If you don't clearly see the ball in one of those areas, a player continuing to play it is certainly evidence that the ball remained in live-ball territory.

If you do clearly see the ball in a dead-ball area, the play should be killed whether or not the defense attempts to keep playing, and dingbat umpires shouldn't advise otherwise at the plate meeting.

That's all he's saying.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Publius

If you do clearly see the ball in a dead-ball area, the play should be killed whether or not the defense attempts to keep playing, and dingbat umpires shouldn't advise otherwise at the plate meeting.

That's all he's saying.

Ah, understood. And agreed.