Ground rules question

[freejoe69]

Situation: Batted ball lands fair down left-field line, hooks past outfield fence into out-of-play area. Outfielder does not signal with two hands raised, but rather chases ball into out-of-play area. Does the ball become dead by the simple fact that it rolled out of play, or rather when fielder signals that it has done so? As the third-base coach, in the absence of a signal, I had batter-runner continue around the bases. After a lengthy conference, the umpires returned him to second base. I contended that in pre-game, umpires had emphasized that on ball in that area, or ball rolling under outfield fence, play would continue in the absence of an outfielder signal. Interpretations and citations, please? Thanks in advance.

[freejoe69]

...that it was a game at the high-school level.

[Rich Ives]

Out of play is out of play. Chasing after it does not keep it live.

BTW the outfielder signal just means he thinks the ball is out of play. Only the umpire can actually declare the ball out of play. Their pre-game did not mean that they couldn't declare the ball put of play - only that it should be treated that way until a determination could be made.

You were right to keep the runner going just in case the ball was not out of play.

Sounds like it was caled correctly.

[freejoe69]

I thought that was probably the case, but wanted to check with the experts.

[bob jenkins]

The fielder raising his hands is just indicating (a) "hey -- umpire -- come out and take a look", and (b) "I didn't touch / push the ball out of play."

When a ball in near the bottom of the fence, there's no real way to tell from the infield whether it's just in play or just out of play. So, if the fielder grabs it, we're going to assume it was always in play. And, if he reaches for it, we're possibly going to assume that he pushed it out of play to "hold" the runner to a double.

[jicecone]

At a pre-game conference, I have seen to many times where everyone shakes their heads and then something like this happens and it still questionable what was said in the pre-game. In an area as discussed, it should be clearly obvious that when the ball goes in dead-ball territory, it is a dead ball and book rules apply accordingly.

I always mention at the plate, "if the ball goes under the fence or in the tarp, or any other dead ball area , tell your OF's to put up their hands , we will let the play continue and complete. We will then go out and make a determination of the award if any".

Now, do the coaches explain that to the OF's, I don't know, but it pays to make sure everyone understands the ground rules.

In Carl Childress's book, "151 ways to Ruin a Baseball Game", this is No. 1.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Out of play is out of play. Chasing after it does not keep it live.

BTW the outfielder signal just means he thinks the ball is out of play. Only the umpire can actually declare the ball out of play. Their pre-game did not mean that they couldn't declare the ball put of play - only that it should be treated that way until a determination could be made.

You were right to keep the runner going just in case the ball was not out of play.

Sounds like it was caled correctly.

I agree with Rich on this one. I make it a point at the plate conference to emphasize the out of play areas on fields like this. My partner and I try to do our best to view the ball and make the call as soon as possible.

[Rich]

I cringe when people say "if the player keeps playing it, it's live..."

No, it's not -- if it's dead, it's dead. If we can't tell, we may use the fielder digging it out of a place as an indicator that it isn't lodged or isn't out of play, but out of play is out of play and if we can see it from where we are, we're calling it accordingly.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by freejoe69

I contended that in pre-game, umpires had emphasized that on ball in that area, or ball rolling under outfield fence, play would continue in the absence of an outfielder signal.

JMO, but they should know better. As others have pointed out, that only applies when it is too hard for the umpires to tell unless one of them goes out there. If it's pretty obvious that the ball entered DBT, then there's no reason to keep the ball Live just because the fielder forgot to raise his hands.

I umpired on a field that had a tarp in front of the backstop. At the base of the tarp right behind home plate, there was a good 12-inch tear. A ball could go through the tear and end up behind the tarp. There were plenty of times where the catcher would go digging for the ball when that happened. Just because he did that, it doesn't mean the ball should stay live. You can see the ball is out of play, so make the call.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I always mention at the plate, "if the ball goes under the fence or in the tarp, or any other dead ball area , tell your OF's to put up their hands , we will let the play continue and complete. We will then go out and make a determination of the award if any".

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

This is pretty much a standard instruction that umpires give at plate conferences when games are played on fields that aren't completely enclosed with permanent fencing. I've never heard anyone--until now--say that this is a form of coaching.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

What are you talking about?

I really don't care if the coach tells his players to stick there hands where the sun don't shine. Putting your hands up is a form of commmunication that has be acceptable in the sport for years. However, maybe your suggesting that to keep up with the times, the player should now take out his phone and text the coach who will call time and relay the message to the umpires on the field.

Would that me more appropriate in your world?

"Realistic officiating does the sport good."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Do NOT instruct players what to do. That's coaching. We don't want coaches to umpire and we should not coach.

What if the player was wrong? The ball is either in play or out of play. We shouldn't direct players what to do. If that is what the coach wants to tell his players to do, so be it. But it is not our position to coach players.

Like Manny said, this is pretty standard stuff across the country.

If you, personally, feel it crosses that coaching line, then simply phrase it differently. "If your fielders raise their hands to indicate it's out of play, we will come out to check it." Something along those lines.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by Manny A

This is pretty much a standard instruction that umpires give at plate conferences when games are played on fields that aren't completely enclosed with permanent fencing. I've never heard anyone--until now--say that this is a form of coaching.

That is the sometimes the instruction that I hear coaches say when they are going over the ground rules at their park. I don't have any problem with coach saying this.

If we're playing lower level games and I am giving the ground rules, I don't think its necessary for me to say this. If a ball rolls under a fence, outfielders have a way of communicating that they can't play the ball. I don't feel the need to instruct the coaches to instruct their players to throw up their arms.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bluehair

That is the sometimes the instruction that I hear coaches say when they are going over the ground rules at their park. I don't have any problem with coach saying this.

If we're playing lower level games and I am giving the ground rules, I don't think its necessary for me to say this. If a ball rolls under a fence, outfielders have a way of communicating that they can't play the ball. I don't feel the need to instruct the coaches to instruct their players to throw up their arms.

And I don't feel the need to discuss what, or what was not, discussed at the pre-game, again during the game.

Are we clear?