Batter throws bat

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I'm not saying that it's inherently careless to throw the bat at the pitch in an effort to hit it. Your description would be an instance of were it clearly wasn't careless. On the other hand, if the bat does go flying into the dugout or goes backwards into where the catcher can legally, and reasonably expected to, be, his legitimate attempt to hit the ball does not excuse the careless throwing of the bat.

Not quite sure how the location of where the bat ends up, has anything to do with the determination of whether a bat was "carelessly" thrown or not. Why are we insistent on saying that things that are not specifically covered by the Rules, are therefore wrong or illegal. As officials we need to stick to enforcement of the rules as they exist and are interpreted. Making it up, just causes problems.

Eg: I am doing a game the other day and R3 is coming home and does not slide. The catcher is on 1B side of plate and receives a low throw from right side of field. Reaches over and tags R3 around the ankle, causing him to flip/trip over the catcher. Two players, playing within the rules and just not executing the plays normal with good baseball techniques. My partner ejects R3 for malicious contact. The coaches question the call. I am not asked to get involved and don't.

It is obvious that it looked malicious to my partner and he made the call but, I don't believe his interpretation of the rules were consistent with "malicious contact" and therefore because something unusual happened, he felt he had to react with a ruling, that I believe was incorrect.

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

It is obvious that it looked malicious to my partner and he made the call but, I don't believe his interpretation of the rules were consistent with "malicious contact" and therefore because something unusual happened, he felt he had to react with a ruling, that I believe was incorrect.

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

So many umpires don't understand that malicious and violent are two different things. Malicious means "with malice". Your partner needs a dictionary.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Not quite sure how the location of where the bat ends up, has anything to do with the determination of whether a bat was "carelessly" thrown or not. Why are we insistent on saying that things that are not specifically covered by the Rules, are therefore wrong or illegal. As officials we need to stick to enforcement of the rules as they exist and are interpreted. Making it up, just causes problems.

Eg: I am doing a game the other day and R3 is coming home and does not slide. The catcher is on 1B side of plate and receives a low throw from right side of field. Reaches over and tags R3 around the ankle, causing him to flip/trip over the catcher. Two players, playing within the rules and just not executing the plays normal with good baseball techniques. My partner ejects R3 for malicious contact. The coaches question the call. I am not asked to get involved and don't.

It is obvious that it looked malicious to my partner and he made the call but, I don't believe his interpretation of the rules were consistent with "malicious contact" and therefore because something unusual happened, he felt he had to react with a ruling, that I believe was incorrect.

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

Your partner was wrong. That has little bearing on what were are talking about here as far as I can tell.

Fed 3-3-1c says "A . . . player . . . shall not carelessly throw a bat." "Penalty: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected . . ."

So this is covered by the rules. If you're arguing that a player who, in an attempt to hit the ball, throws the bat all the way to the fence has thrown the bat in a careful manner, then we disagree on what is careless.

We are not given a definition for carelessly throwing the bat, so if you judge that not to be careless, you can't technically be wrong, but I'd question your judgement in the matter.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Your partner was wrong. That has little bearing on what were are talking about here as far as I can tell.

Fed 3-3-1c says "A . . . player . . . shall not carelessly throw a bat." "Penalty: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected . . ."

So this is covered by the rules. If you're arguing that a player who, in an attempt to hit the ball, throws the bat all the way to the fence has thrown the bat in a careful manner, then we disagree on what is careless.

We are not given a definition for carelessly throwing the bat, so if you judge that not to be careless, you can't technically be wrong, but I'd question your judgement in the matter.

The point of my example was not to point out whether my partner was wrong or not, because in his mind and interpretations he wasn't. But, had his understanding of the "Malicious" interpretation been better understood, he most likely would have made the correct call.

Which takes us back to one interpreting "carelessly throwing the bat".

I have seen a bat being thrown at a pitch and have never been able to differentiate if the batter lunged and then the bat slipped from his hands or if he purposely was throwing the bat. Which in my mind does not fit the rule you cited.

So in that case, because it does not fit the rule, and as you stated there is "not a given definition for carelessly throwing the bat", how can you judge that because it ended up next to the fence, it was "careless". And because YOU, have judged that interpretation to be the correct one, how are you any different than my partner was?

Which you have already stated as being "wrong". Thats my point.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by jicecone

The point of my example was not to point out whether my partner was wrong or not, because in his mind and interpretations he wasn't. But, had his understanding of the "Malicious" interpretation been better understood, he most likely would have made the correct call.

Which takes us back to one interpreting "carelessly throwing the bat".

I have seen a bat being thrown at a pitch and have never been able to differentiate if the batter lunged and then the bat slipped from his hands or if he purposely was throwing the bat. Which in my mind does not fit the rule you cited.

I agree that it's unlikely to have been thrown carelessly if it's a case of slipping while lunging.

So in that case, because it does not fit the rule, and as you stated there is "not a given definition for carelessly throwing the bat", how can you judge that because it ended up next to the fence, it was "careless".

To quote you, "Sometimes you just have to umpire." But I'm astonished that you think throwing a bat 30+ ft to hit a pitch within 2 ft doesn't rise to the level of careless.

And because YOU, have judged that interpretation to be the correct one, how are you any different than my partner was?

Which you have already stated as being "wrong". Thats my point.

Because I'm applying an actual rule. He didn't.

You appear to be wrongly equating carelessly with unintentionally. You can be intentional and careless as well as unintentional and careless.

When you release the bat either intentionally or unintentionally in such a way that it poses a hazard to the safety of others, you have carelessly thrown the bat. You have thrown the bat without care to the safety of others.

Think of it this way: if the batter throws the bat into your shins on his follow through is it better or worse if he did it intentionally? My guess is you are going to warn the team for carelessly throwing the bat if it is unintentional but eject without warning if it was intentional.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You appear to be wrongly equating carelessly with unintentionally. You can be intentional and careless as well as unintentional and careless.

When you release the bat either intentionally or unintentionally in such a way that it poses a hazard to the safety of others, you have carelessly thrown the bat. You have thrown the bat without care to the safety of others.

Think of it this way: if the batter throws the bat into your shins on his follow through is it better or worse if he did it intentionally? My guess is you are going to warn the team for carelessly throwing the bat if it is unintentional but eject without warning if it was intentional.

No, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Lets just say that I believe your judgement of "carelessly" is different than mine and leave it that we disagree. I have seen bats end up in the stands, almost at first and it really has never entered my mind that it was carelessly.

Have a good day!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

no, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Lets just say that i believe your judgement of "carelessly" is different than everyone else's and leave it that we disagree. I have seen bats end up in the stands, almost at first and it really has never entered my mind that it was carelessly.

Have a good day!

fify

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

fify

fixed it for yourself, perhaps, but certainly not everyone else's. I agree with Eastshire, who stated what I meant more eloquently than I did.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by jicecone

No, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Since it was due to inexperience, it was not also careless? What a strange definition of careless.

Lets just say that I believe your judgement of "carelessly" is different than mine and leave it that we disagree. I have seen bats end up in the stands, almost at first and it really has never entered my mind that it was carelessly.

Have a good day!

You honestly don't think a batter has been careless with his bat when it ends up in the stands? I'll make sure I'm behind the backstop if I ever take in one of your games.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You honestly don't think a batter has been careless with his bat when it ends up in the stands? I'll make sure I'm behind the backstop if I ever take in one of your games.

Ever wonder why the pros have bats go flying as often as they do?

If you death-grip a bat you will significantly hinder your ability to hit.

Sometimes they slip out of a batter's hands. That doesn't make it careless.