Batter throws bat

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Some disagreements on here, or debates, are the result of people with opposing understandings of something trying to talk through the situation and resolve it, in order to make us better umpires.

Other debates or debaters come from people just saying whatever they can to "win" the argument. This sort of thing serves no purpose, and doesn't make anyone better.

Your response, here, is the latter. Rich was referring to THIS scenario. Your "rebuttal" (using the term incredibly loosely) has nothing at all to do with this scenario (unless, I guess, you're allowing the catcher to set up in fair territory, or are imagining a scenario where the batter tosses the bat to hit a pitch out... hits it... and somehow defying physics the bat propels itself into fair territory to interfere with someone trying to field that hit.)

Rich said: "There is NO LEGAL WAY you can punish a batter for making a legitimate attempt to hit a pitch." I disagreed with that general statement and cited 6.05(h) Comment (which, with respect to the part about a whole bat being thrown, does not require a batted ball).

BTW: I have a great deal of respect for Rich and his knowledge and understanding of the rules. We have butted heads before, and he has consistently supported his views with rule cites and cogent arguments, rather than resorting to personal attacks by cutting, pasting and reposting childish gibberish.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Not quite sure how the location of where the bat ends up, has anything to do with the determination of whether a bat was "carelessly" thrown or not. Why are we insistent on saying that things that are not specifically covered by the Rules, are therefore wrong or illegal. As officials we need to stick to enforcement of the rules as they exist and are interpreted. Making it up, just causes problems.

Eg: I am doing a game the other day and R3 is coming home and does not slide. The catcher is on 1B side of plate and receives a low throw from right side of field. Reaches over and tags R3 around the ankle, causing him to flip/trip over the catcher. Two players, playing within the rules and just not executing the plays normal with good baseball techniques. My partner ejects R3 for malicious contact. The coaches question the call. I am not asked to get involved and don't.

It is obvious that it looked malicious to my partner and he made the call but, I don't believe his interpretation of the rules were consistent with "malicious contact" and therefore because something unusual happened, he felt he had to react with a ruling, that I believe was incorrect.

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

Your partner was wrong. That has little bearing on what were are talking about here as far as I can tell.

Fed 3-3-1c says "A . . . player . . . shall not carelessly throw a bat." "Penalty: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected . . ."

So this is covered by the rules. If you're arguing that a player who, in an attempt to hit the ball, throws the bat all the way to the fence has thrown the bat in a careful manner, then we disagree on what is careless.

We are not given a definition for carelessly throwing the bat, so if you judge that not to be careless, you can't technically be wrong, but I'd question your judgement in the matter.

[Tim C]

As a co-author of the NFHS original Malicious Contact rule there are only two reasons for MC to be called:

1) Was the force of collision made to injure another player and,

2) Was the force of the collision made to detach the ball from the defenders legal grasp?

Not that hard.

T

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Your partner was wrong. That has little bearing on what were are talking about here as far as I can tell.

Fed 3-3-1c says "A . . . player . . . shall not carelessly throw a bat." "Penalty: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected . . ."

So this is covered by the rules. If you're arguing that a player who, in an attempt to hit the ball, throws the bat all the way to the fence has thrown the bat in a careful manner, then we disagree on what is careless.

We are not given a definition for carelessly throwing the bat, so if you judge that not to be careless, you can't technically be wrong, but I'd question your judgement in the matter.

The point of my example was not to point out whether my partner was wrong or not, because in his mind and interpretations he wasn't. But, had his understanding of the "Malicious" interpretation been better understood, he most likely would have made the correct call.

Which takes us back to one interpreting "carelessly throwing the bat".

I have seen a bat being thrown at a pitch and have never been able to differentiate if the batter lunged and then the bat slipped from his hands or if he purposely was throwing the bat. Which in my mind does not fit the rule you cited.

So in that case, because it does not fit the rule, and as you stated there is "not a given definition for carelessly throwing the bat", how can you judge that because it ended up next to the fence, it was "careless". And because YOU, have judged that interpretation to be the correct one, how are you any different than my partner was?

Which you have already stated as being "wrong". Thats my point.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by jicecone

The point of my example was not to point out whether my partner was wrong or not, because in his mind and interpretations he wasn't. But, had his understanding of the "Malicious" interpretation been better understood, he most likely would have made the correct call.

Which takes us back to one interpreting "carelessly throwing the bat".

I have seen a bat being thrown at a pitch and have never been able to differentiate if the batter lunged and then the bat slipped from his hands or if he purposely was throwing the bat. Which in my mind does not fit the rule you cited.

I agree that it's unlikely to have been thrown carelessly if it's a case of slipping while lunging.

So in that case, because it does not fit the rule, and as you stated there is "not a given definition for carelessly throwing the bat", how can you judge that because it ended up next to the fence, it was "careless".

To quote you, "Sometimes you just have to umpire." But I'm astonished that you think throwing a bat 30+ ft to hit a pitch within 2 ft doesn't rise to the level of careless.

And because YOU, have judged that interpretation to be the correct one, how are you any different than my partner was?

Which you have already stated as being "wrong". Thats my point.

Because I'm applying an actual rule. He didn't.

You appear to be wrongly equating carelessly with unintentionally. You can be intentional and careless as well as unintentional and careless.

When you release the bat either intentionally or unintentionally in such a way that it poses a hazard to the safety of others, you have carelessly thrown the bat. You have thrown the bat without care to the safety of others.

Think of it this way: if the batter throws the bat into your shins on his follow through is it better or worse if he did it intentionally? My guess is you are going to warn the team for carelessly throwing the bat if it is unintentional but eject without warning if it was intentional.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Tim C

As a co-author of the NFHS original Malicious Contact rule there are only two reasons for MC to be called:

1) Was the force of collision made to injure another player and,

2) Was the force of the collision made to detach the ball from the defenders legal grasp?

Not that hard.

T

Tim. did you mean "or"? There are times that MC can occur when a fielder doesn't have the ball, such as in a rundown.

[Tim C]

What I meant is what I wrote.

MC is solely directed to ball, runner, fielder. Your example of a run down (and I am assuming that you are talking about a runner and fielder without a ball present) originally would have been an ejection for unsportsmanlike behavior and NOT malicious contact.

T

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You appear to be wrongly equating carelessly with unintentionally. You can be intentional and careless as well as unintentional and careless.

When you release the bat either intentionally or unintentionally in such a way that it poses a hazard to the safety of others, you have carelessly thrown the bat. You have thrown the bat without care to the safety of others.

Think of it this way: if the batter throws the bat into your shins on his follow through is it better or worse if he did it intentionally? My guess is you are going to warn the team for carelessly throwing the bat if it is unintentional but eject without warning if it was intentional.

No, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Lets just say that I believe your judgement of "carelessly" is different than mine and leave it that we disagree. I have seen bats end up in the stands, almost at first and it really has never entered my mind that it was carelessly.

Have a good day!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

no, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Lets just say that i believe your judgement of "carelessly" is different than everyone else's and leave it that we disagree. I have seen bats end up in the stands, almost at first and it really has never entered my mind that it was carelessly.

Have a good day!

fify

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

fify

fixed it for yourself, perhaps, but certainly not everyone else's. I agree with Eastshire, who stated what I meant more eloquently than I did.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by jicecone

No, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Since it was due to inexperience, it was not also careless? What a strange definition of careless.

Lets just say that I believe your judgement of "carelessly" is different than mine and leave it that we disagree. I have seen bats end up in the stands, almost at first and it really has never entered my mind that it was carelessly.

Have a good day!

You honestly don't think a batter has been careless with his bat when it ends up in the stands? I'll make sure I'm behind the backstop if I ever take in one of your games.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You honestly don't think a batter has been careless with his bat when it ends up in the stands? I'll make sure I'm behind the backstop if I ever take in one of your games.

Ever wonder why the pros have bats go flying as often as they do?

If you death-grip a bat you will significantly hinder your ability to hit.

Sometimes they slip out of a batter's hands. That doesn't make it careless.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Ever wonder why the pros have bats go flying as often as they do?

If you death-grip a bat you will significantly hinder your ability to hit.

Sometimes they slip out of a batter's hands. That doesn't make it careless.

Admittedly, it's been years since I've had my season tickets, but I don't recall the pros having bats go flying on any basis that could be considered often.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Admittedly, it's been years since I've had my season tickets, but I don't recall the pros having bats go flying on any basis that could be considered often.

Fine ... but when it does happen, do you think those umpires immediately issue a warning to the batter?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Fine ... but when it does happen, do you think those umpires immediately issue a warning to the batter?

I suspect not as they aren't using FED.