Why me, ignorant partner

[scottk_61]

I was working a LL Srs. game a few days back (scrimmage) and had this happen.
Bottom of the first inning.
Right handed batter takes a late swing and hits a shot down the first base line.
The ball hits the bag and ricochets into dead ball territory.
Partner behind the plate screams "FOUL BALL"
I call "Time" just to get his attention and to head off the Coach coming out of the dugout.
I tell my partner that the ball hit the bag and then went into dead ball territory and that we need to award the proper bases.
Moron behind the plate tells me that, "No, that is a foul ball."
I try to convince him to no avail, Coach tries to talk to him and he won't hear it.
It was a very long game.

[mick]

Good thing the game didn't matter.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by scottk_61
I was working a LL Srs. game a few days back (scrimmage) and had this happen.
Bottom of the first inning.
Right handed batter takes a late swing and hits a shot down the first base line.
The ball hits the bag and ricochets into dead ball territory.
Partner behind the plate screams "FOUL BALL"
I call "Time" just to get his attention and to head off the Coach coming out of the dugout.
I tell my partner that the ball hit the bag and then went into dead ball territory and that we need to award the proper bases.
Moron behind the plate tells me that, "No, that is a foul ball."
I try to convince him to no avail, Coach tries to talk to him and he won't hear it.
It was a very long game.

There are several issues to note about the situation with which you were faced.

1. Once the ball hits the base that's the BU's FAIR/FOUL call! PU only has up to but NOT including the base. Your partner got it wrong on TWO counts!

2. Since it was a call that can't normally be changed - ie. FOUL to FAIR - it may have been better not to intervene at that time. There was nothing to be achieved.

3. I wouldn't try to "head off" the coach in such circumstances. If he asks the PU the right questions - eg. "What did you see, ump?" - he may well have grounds for a legitimate protest.

4. It is not generally your job as BU to save your partner from his own stupidity. OTOH, immediately (and privately) telling your partner what you saw is normally the way to go on any clear rule misapplication - see point 2 for the reason this case was an exception.

I hope the coach wasn't privy to the discussions between the two umpires. I'm sure you know better than to allow that.

I might also point out that 20/20 hindsight often makes the means to handle such situations obvious on a discussion board. That same means may NOT be so obvious on the diamond in the heat of the moment. No personal criticism intended, Scott. Scrimmages are certainly the place to work such issues out, especially if your partner will be working with you in the regular season.

Cheers

[scottk_61]

There are several issues to note about the situation with which you were faced.

1. Once the ball hits the base that's the BU's FAIR/FOUL call! PU only has up to but NOT including the base. Your partner got it wrong on TWO counts!

2. Since it was a call that can't normally be changed - ie. FOUL to FAIR - it may have been better not to intervene at that time. There was nothing to be achieved.

No problems Warren,
We had agreed in our pregame that bounding balls and line drives are the PU calls, so the ball hitting the bag was definately his call.
I am not a disciple of the bounding ball being the BU's call. At 10-15 feet behind the bad and 3-5 feet off the line, there is no way I can accurately call that nor will I. That is a foolish call in my book that puts the Ump crew in peril.
The call being changed should have been no problem since the ball went into dead ball territory.
Heading off the coach was just preventive umping to keep the riot to a minimum. One of the coaches is a well known and respected coach who actually knows the rules of the game

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by scottk_61
No problems Warren,
We had agreed in our pregame that bounding balls and line drives are the PU calls, so the ball hitting the bag was definately his call.
I am not a disciple of the bounding ball being the BU's call. At 10-15 feet behind the bad and 3-5 feet off the line, there is no way I can accurately call that nor will I. That is a foolish call in my book that puts the Ump crew in peril.
The call being changed should have been no problem since the ball went into dead ball territory.
Heading off the coach was just preventive umping to keep the riot to a minimum. One of the coaches is a well known and respected coach who actually knows the rules of the game

I take your point about the prior agreement, Scott, but I'm NOT so sure I'd agree that it was a good agreement to make.

1. The approved professional mechanic has that call belonging to the BU - UDP Manual For The Two-Umpire System, p16.

2. With the bounding ball hit down the foul line between home and 1st base, the BU should move down the line toward 1st base to make that FAIR/FOUL call. Standing motionless in position A, or moving infield before the ball has reached the base, is NOT recommended on any batted ball that has not yet been declared FAIR or FOUL.

I take the point that changing the call should have been no problem in that it deflected into dead ball territory. That was information that you did not include in your original post. My points were more intended as a general reflection of what SHOULD happen, and not as any sort of direct criticism of your actions on the day.

Certainly you may choose to accept or reject the advice I have offered on the subject. I have merely tried to convey the current accepted mechanics and procedures at the highest level of the game. Only you and your assignor may judge whether those are appropriate for your league and level of the game.

Cheers

[Jay R]

There seems to be some confusuon in our association about whose call that is. I always assumed like Warren that a bounding ball past the base was the BU's call. Tonight, I was on 3rd base line (in a 3-Man Crew)and a similar play occured. Just as I signaled Foul Ball, the PU does the same. Thankfully, our calls were not contradictory. After the game, the PU (a veteran) said the BU should only call line drives or fly balls that fly and land beyond the base.

How do most of you handle this situation?

[GarthB]

Our mechanic: Up to the bag is PU, the bag and beyond, however it gets there, is BU.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by Warren Willson
[QUOTEI take your point about the prior agreement, Scott, but I'm NOT so sure I'd agree that it was a good agreement to make.

1. The approved professional mechanic has that call belonging to the BU - UDP Manual For The Two-Umpire System, p16.

2. With the bounding ball hit down the foul line between home and 1st base, the BU should move down the line toward 1st base to make that FAIR/FOUL call. Standing motionless in position A, or moving infield before the ball has reached the base, is NOT recommended on any batted ball that has not yet been declared FAIR or FOUL.

I take the point that changing the call should have been no problem in that it deflected into dead ball territory. That was information that you did not include in your original post. My points were more intended as a general reflection of what SHOULD happen, and not as any sort of direct criticism of your actions on the day.


Cheers

Warren, I appreciate what you have to offer in the way of advice and know the old UDP mechanic but differ from that view on occassion. (isn't it great to have an opinion)
I did indeed include the deflection into dead ball territory in my original post, hopefully you are more attentive in game situations. :^)

Have a good day.

[Jerry]

It's an umpire's (preferably the UIC/PU) to live with his/her own calls. Regardless of who should have called what, the PU has to live (and die) with his calls.

As his partner, your only obligation is to make sure he's not ganged-up upon. He's gotta argue with the 1st one in his face. It's your job to keep the other ones away.

If he made a "bad" call, that's none of your business. Even if he made a contrary call. The argument belongs to him; not you.

The best you can do in that situation is to say, "He's the umpire-in-chief; I'm going with whatever he says." That way, there's no confrontation and no discussion as to right or wrong. Let's make a decision and play ball.

Jerry

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by scottk_61

Warren, I appreciate what you have to offer in the way of advice and know the old UDP mechanic but differ from that view on occassion. (isn't it great to have an opinion)
I did indeed include the deflection into dead ball territory in my original post, hopefully you are more attentive in game situations. :^)

Have a good day.

Your right to differ from the "old" UDP mechanic is respected and yes it is great, even essential at times, to have an opinion - especially as an umpire!

My apologies for misreading your post. You may find it hard to believe, but I even "re-read" that original post before remarking about the dead ball territory information not being there, and STILL I missed it! Oi vey! I'm gonna get my prescription checked before I go out again to call balls and strikes!

Thank you for reacting so even handedly to my peccadillo. It is refreshing to be granted the presumption of innocence on any discussion board these days.

Cheers

[Rich]

Why are you 3-5 feet off the line?

You should be right next to the line in the A position.

Most umpires I work with these days give the bounding ball to the base umpire at or beyond the CUTOUT, not the bag. It's an easier reference point, and gives the base umpire the first crack to signal on the fair/foul bounding ball. If the base umpire hesitates, the plate umpire signals.

Rich

[mick]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Why are you 3-5 feet off the line?

You should be right next to the line in the A position.

Most umpires I work with these days give the bounding ball to the base umpire at or beyond the CUTOUT, not the bag. It's an easier reference point, and gives the base umpire the first crack to signal on the fair/foul bounding ball. If the base umpire hesitates, the plate umpire signals.

Rich

Rich,
I like the KISS method.

Base ump can point, if he doesn't mind,
and the plate ump calls all balls on the line.
mick

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Why are you 3-5 feet off the line?

You should be right next to the line in the A position.

Most umpires I work with these days give the bounding ball to the base umpire at or beyond the CUTOUT, not the bag. It's an easier reference point, and gives the base umpire the first crack to signal on the fair/foul bounding ball. If the base umpire hesitates, the plate umpire signals.

Rich

I get off of the line about 2.5 to 4 feet but many clinics are advocating further in order to giv the plate ump an easy view of the line all the way out in cases of line drives or bounding balls.
Hugging the line is (imho) lazy umpiring mechanics. Again, its an opinion and it is a position that affords me a greater view for pickoff attempts etc.
I agree with you on the responsibiity from the cutout and not the bag, it works much better like that.

[GarthB]

I get off of the line about 2.5 to 4 feet but many clinics are advocating further in order to giv the plate ump an easy view of the line all the way out in cases of line drives or bounding balls.

What type of clinics? Who is running these clinics? I don't know of a pro school or a pro clinic or an NCAA clinic that teaches this. Please let me know if I've missed something new here, but to me this makes no sense. Line drives or bounding balls "all the way out" belong to the BU not the PU.

Hugging the line is (imho) lazy umpiring mechanics.

Perhaps you perceive it that way, but to those who teach at proschools, it is the proper mechanic.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by GarthB
I get off of the line about 2.5 to 4 feet but many clinics are advocating further in order to giv the plate ump an easy view of the line all the way out in cases of line drives or bounding balls.

What type of clinics? Who is running these clinics? I don't know of a pro school or a pro clinic or an NCAA clinic that teaches this. Please let me know if I've missed something new here, but to me this makes no sense. Line drives or bounding balls "all the way out" belong to the BU not the PU.

Hugging the line is (imho) lazy umpiring mechanics.

Perhaps you perceive it that way, but to those who teach at proschools, it is the proper mechanic.

When I went to the Evans School in the dark old days, they had you get off the line more too.
Maybe I am using improper wording when I say "bounding ball and line drives."
I guess I should say line drives that are touched or caught before touching the ground along the first base area...... not ones that actually go untouched and then hit past the bag.
The same goes for bounding balls that cut the bag, and not just bounding inside and then going past the bag.
Maybe this will help clarify what I am saying. Instead of generating mud as I usually do.