3rd to 1st Move Becomes a Balk

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by egj13

This rule has always essentially been there (has been a case play in the rule book itself as long as I can remember) but it wasn't being called consistently so they just did away with the possibility of it ever happening.

SAY WHAT? Are you talking about the 3rd to 1st move? If you are the you didn't 'jump off your soapbox". you fell off. Please mention ONE game wher this wasn't called consistently, one. in alomost 30 years of umpiring, i can't recall ANYONE blowing this call, in games I have done or watched in person or on TV.

[Mrumpiresir]

Any umpire worth a damn can call this easily. If F1 steps and fakes to 3rd and clears the rubber and then fakes or throw to first, he has not violated a rule. If he steps to third and is is still in contact with the rubber and in the same motion turns and feints to first, he has balked. If he doesn't step toward third in his fake, he has balked.

I find this an entertaining part of the game and yes, I have seen it work.

I still contend there is no reason to change this rule.

Someone is dumbing down the game of baseball.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by jicecone

SAY WHAT? Are you talking about the 3rd to 1st move? If you are the you didn't 'jump off your soapbox". you fell off. Please mention ONE game wher this wasn't called consistently, one. in alomost 30 years of umpiring, i can't recall ANYONE blowing this call, in games I have done or watched in person or on TV.

Even in the current rule (before any change) it was a balk if you faked towards 3rd and then wheeled to throw to first without stepping towards first. Umpires at ALL levels were not enforcing the step towards first and thus not calling the rule as it was intended to be called.

Here is the excerpt stright from the MLB rule book:

"Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly
toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without
actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
Apitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him
to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for
the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the
runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if,
with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then
immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an
attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step
directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of
course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk."

So basically we as umpires weren't calling it consistently so baseball simply made it illegal at all times to take it out of our hands.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by egj13

Even in the current rule (before any change) it was a balk if you faked towards 3rd and then wheeled to throw to first without stepping towards first. Umpires at ALL levels were not enforcing the step towards first and thus not calling the rule as it was intended to be called.

Here is the excerpt stright from the MLB rule book:

"Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly
toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without
actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
Apitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him
to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for
the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the
runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if,
with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then
immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an
attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step
directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of
course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk."

So basically we as umpires weren't calling it consistently so baseball simply made it illegal at all times to take it out of our hands.

There's so much here that isn't right that I don't know where to begin.

[maven]

Originally Posted by egj13

So basically we as umpires weren't calling it consistently so baseball simply made it illegal at all times to take it out of our hands.

As others have already pointed out, this account of the motivation for the change is incorrect. MLB doesn't care how you call your games or how anyone else might use their rules.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by maven

As others have already pointed out, this account of the motivation for the change is incorrect. MLB doesn't care how you call your games or how anyone else might use their rules.

My account for the motivation of the rule change came thusly...sitting at a dinner with the father of a MLB umpire last summer he brought up to me that MLB umpires had been informed that this rule would be eliminated because...wait for it...inconsistency in application.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by egj13

My account for the motivation of the rule change came thusly...sitting at a dinner with the father of a MLB umpire last summer he brought up to me that MLB umpires had been informed that this rule would be eliminated because...wait for it...inconsistency in application.

to the extent that's true, I think the inconsistency is in not calling a balk when the pitcher didn't step toward third (either stepped more toward home, or didn't mov ethe free foot enough toward third -- left it in "the same footprint")

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by egj13

So basically we as umpires weren't calling it consistently so baseball simply made it illegal at all times to take it out of our hands.

I have never seen F1 fein to 3B when he didn't come off the rubber on this move, which made it legal (previously) for the now infielder to throw to 1B. If F1 didn't come off the rubber, I can't image an umpire not recognizing it and balking it for no other reason than the ugliness it would take to perform.

Can you describe a sitch where you actually witnessed this "inconsistency"?

[egj13]

Originally Posted by bluehair

I have never seen F1 fein to 3B when he didn't come off the rubber on this move, which made it legal (previously) for the now infielder to throw to 1B. If F1 didn't come off the rubber, I can't image an umpire not recognizing it and balking it for no other reason than the ugliness it would take to perform.

Can you describe a sitch where you actually witnessed this "inconsistency"?

I am either dreaming or we have some bad umpires in here.

The pitcher would only have become an infileder if he stepped backward off the rubber prior to feining to third base. In a 3rd to 1st scenario the pitcher rarely, if ever steps off first. So since he stepped directly towards 3rd..without stepping off...and then wheeled to throw to first without stepping towards first ahead of the throw he now balked. The fact that he lost contact with the rubber when he feinted to third does not releas him from the requirement to STEP towards first before he throws there. Pull up some video...I bet you will be able to see that after feining to thrid, he then turned to throw to first WIHOUT STEPPING AHEAD of the throw...which is a balk.

Clearly no one on this board was calling it a balk hence the reason to need to change the rule

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by egj13

I am either dreaming or we have some bad umpires in here.

It could be both. But if the pitcher steps toward third (or second) and in the process removes the pivot foot from the rubber (this happens 99.9% of the time), he has become an infielder, just as if he stepped backwards off the rubber.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It could be both. But if the pitcher steps toward third (or second) and in the process removes the pivot foot from the rubber (this happens 99.9% of the time), he has become an infielder, just as if he stepped backwards off the rubber.

Bob I don't know you but I have respect for you from following on the boards...but according to the MLB rule book you are incorrect.

Why would MLB put a comment with a particular rule interpretation and give an example of the play if it wasn't a common mistake made? I don't see what you guys are missing in the MLB comment.

When a pitcher steps towards third and then wheels on that front foot and throws to first without stepping towards first AHEAD OF THE THROW it is a balk even though his back foot broke with the rubber...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by egj13

Why would MLB put a comment with a particular rule interpretation and give an example of the play if it wasn't a common mistake made? I don't see what you guys are missing in the MLB comment.

Obviously.

When a pitcher steps towards third and then wheels on that front foot and throws to first without stepping towards first AHEAD OF THE THROW it is a balk even though his back foot broke with the rubber...

No. If he wheels on the BACK foot and doesn't remove it from the rubber during the throw to third, then you have a balk.

You need to slowly read the part of the rule you are harping on. Here it is again so no one has to page back.

However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk."

Note where it says "SUCH A MOVE". It says that in the move it's describing, it is nearly impossible to step directly toward first base, and in that move, you have a balk. THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE says "of course" --- if the pitcher steps off (not disengages; not steps BACK; steps OFF) the rubber and then makes "such a move" - i.e. wheeling and throwing to first --- it's NOT a balk.

I see where your assumption has gone wrong. I ask you to take your assumption of what they are talking about and try very hard to fit the final sentence into your assumption ... it doesn't fit.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by egj13

When a pitcher steps towards third and then wheels on that front foot and throws to first without stepping towards first AHEAD OF THE THROW it is a balk even though his back foot broke with the rubber...

I never see that move (at least as I use the word "wheels").

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by egj13

I am either dreaming or we have some bad umpires in here.

You are correct... but the bad umpires are the opposite group from what you're assuming.

The pitcher would only have become an infileder if he stepped backward off the rubber prior to feining to third base.

Why would you think this. More importantly, what rule states this? This is just flat untrue. Feinting a throw (FEINTING, people, not FEINING) to third (or 2nd) is a legal disengagement from the rubber. You don't have to disengage first to feint a throw to 2nd or 3rd.

[QUOTE]So since he stepped directly towards 3rd..without stepping off...and then wheeled to throw to first without stepping towards first ahead of the throw he now balked.[/quote}This is only true if he manages all of this without removing his foot from the rubber at all. A) That's DAMN hard to do, and B) the reason you've never seen it is because it's a balk.

The fact that he lost contact with the rubber when he feinted to third does not releas him from the requirement to STEP towards first before he throws there. Pull up some video...I bet you will be able to see that after feining to thrid, he then turned to throw to first WIHOUT STEPPING AHEAD of the throw...which is a balk.

Herein lies the complete misunderstanding of this rule you seem to be having.

Clearly no one on this board was calling it a balk hence the reason to need to change the rule

It was not being called a balk because it's not a balk... that said - you're literally insane if you think MLB would change a rule because the members of officiating.com were calling something incorrectly.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by egj13

So basically we as umpires weren't calling it consistently so baseball simply made it illegal at all times to take it out of our hands.

Sorry we aren't going to be able to help you.