Over-ruling partner

[Lonewolf986]

I actually like that better...this would mean, I would take the leading runner's calls, even at home? correct?

[CDcoach]

"What do you think about this?

I've had to do this, when I am straight-lined at 1st. (C position)

When theres a play at first, I look at my partner if he is OUT (from my angle...Ball beats the runner), if my partner gives me the sign that his foot was off the bag, then I make a sign of "SAFE" (all I ask for from my partner is the pulled leg)

This decision is almost simultaneous

If he is SAFE or I SEE the pulled foot, then I dont need to look at my Pard.

If the runner is out from my angle, I glance at my partner, who tells me if he was on the bag or not, if not, then I call safe...

Though, I've only been able to do this with a few Umps, not many can coordinate that well

Ideas, comments, SUGGESTIONS on how to do this better?"


The key there lonewolf is that you take a GLANCE. You don't want to stare him down. It puts a lot of pressure on him and coahces may notice him being nervous. However if you let him know you are going to be glancing and he has the signal ready on the glance and you can call safe it sounds good. But remember if there is no signal don't spend time looking. Keep good timing and I think it sounds pretty cool and I might try it sometime.

And you obviously know that all umpires may not be able to handle this extra weight

[GarthB]

What do you think about this?


I think it would be better to figure out why you are getting straightlined and adjust your mechanics so that it doesn't happen. You needn't take root in C position.

[GarthB]

Your Thoughts on this

My thought is that it is better to use the proper two man mechanics that are described in the PBUC (NAPBL) and taught at proschool. These have been developed over the years and provide the best compromises when compromise is needed.

Want to be known as a "Smitty?" Make up your own mechanics.

[GarthB]

I actually like that better...this would mean, I would take the leading runner's calls, even at home? correct?


No, no, no, no, no.

Use proper mechanics. Whether you choose FED or Pro, you will always be far better served than creating your own.

Years and countless went into developing what we have know. You spent how much time on this idea of yours, 30 seconds?

There is no substitute for doing it right.

[David B]

Ideas, comments, SUGGESTIONS on how to do this better?

This may work in your world, but I don't buy into all this secret signals, pulling on your pants, scratching your crotch, rubbing my ...

How about a good basic, point at your partner and ask clearly "did he pull his foot?"

Partner says "yes" or "no" and then BU finishes the call.

Thats so much simpler and works in every ball park anytime.

Also, I agree with Garth, work hard and don't get straightlined at first.

It takes some effort, but its worth the hard work.

Thanks
David

[Bfair]

Never impose yourself on the judgment aspects of your partner's call---even if it is an obviously poor judgment causing a blown call. It's his call, and his argument.

However, if there is an aspect of the play that you believe he may not have seen that led to that blown call---such as a ball dropping from a glove during a tag attempt, then approach him after the play to ascertain he is aware of that information.

Bill, are you aware F5 dropped the ball?

If he says yes, then leave him alone. He made his judgment decision having knowledge of that fact.
If he says no, then he is now aware of the information you have provided and can change his call if he so desires. He may ask you further questions regarding the timing of the drop, etc. Add the information, but the decision remains his, not yours.

You should also approach your partner if you feel a rule interpretation has been misapplied. Suppose F1 attempts a pickoff throw after stepping back off the rubber, and the ball goes to DBT. Your partner awards only one base for the overthrow. Approach him to ascertain that he is aware a throw from off the rubber is a 2 base award. The decision of the reward still remains his.

Usually you won't have a long opportunity to present this added information because a complaining coach will be at your partner first. Work your way toward your partner slowly, but do not impose yourself into his argument. Your presence let's your partner know you are there if he needs you. Many veteran officials can read the body language of their partner and realize he has something he wants to tell you. Take the time to talk to him if needed. It frequently may resolve the issue.

But remember, never attempt to overrule your partner.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Lonewolf986]

Originally posted by David B
Ideas, comments, SUGGESTIONS on how to do this better?

This may work in your world, but I don't buy into all this secret signals, pulling on your pants, scratching your crotch, rubbing my ...

How about a good basic, point at your partner and ask clearly "did he pull his foot?"

Partner says "yes" or "no" and then BU finishes the call.

Thats so much simpler and works in every ball park anytime.

Also, I agree with Garth, work hard and don't get straightlined at first.

It takes some effort, but its worth the hard work.

Thanks
David

Let it be known, that I WILL take these suggestions....just in case anyone else wants to "suggest" the same.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by douglas childress

What i like to do is if i'm the PU and my PARD is in the infield or behind 2B or SS with runners on base i will take the call at first only bacause i feel i would have the better angle. Your Thoughts on this

Obviously, in the situation posed, there is a man on second/and third if the BU is in the C. (I personally like being in the B with a single runner on third. Only with runners on 2nd/and 3rd will I be in the C.) HMMMM, bases loaded?

I feel you as the BU has that responsibility to make that call at first. Once you start getting into rotating responsibilities your gonna run into problems.

I personally take the runner all the way. I had the infamous play at third happen twice, one we made the opposite call, the other we both got it wrong, LOL.

In your pre-game with your partner, situations should be discussed on who is going to make the call on certain plays. Runner on 1st, base hit, who has the runner at third? Who's gonna cover the plate? Etc...

The runner on second/third is the primary responsibility of the PU. You as the PU should move back and down the third base line and expect the play at the plate while also looking down the line for the pulled foot or swipe tag. Once you move back into that position you as the PU are not any closer than the BU. The BU should be moving toward 1st as the play is being made. Once he does that, he should be making the call somewhere near the pitcher's mound.

I've always made a call as BU based on what I saw and go with my first instinct. I figured if there was a pulled foot or a tag/no tag, I could always go to my partner and change the call if warranted. I was told this wasn't the correct mechanic.

From my understanding of the mechanic is, if there is a question on a pulled foot or swipe tag, the BU should point to his partner for him to make the call. Just hope your partner is on it.

Just to cause some contraversy, IMO, I don't agree with that mechanic.

What happens if your partner is getting the bat out of the way, or was watching action at third, or just wasn't looking?

You pointing to him meaning you are not sure, he shrugs his shoulders, the call at first is now a guess.

Looking forward to your comments.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by wobster
First off, I am relatively new to umpiring, only been doing it for 3 or so years. I do mostly little league at one diamond, but have done some 1/2 pint (10-13 years old, really good players for that age) games. My question is this. How certain do you have to be to over-rule your BU's call. There have been many where I thought the BU was wrong, and the stands exploded, but I wasn't totally sure he was wrong, so I let the call stand. I usually get some comments after the game that I should have over-ruled him, but I am 75 feet away and he is 5. I would have a hard time justifying it unless I was 100% sure.

May I acquaint you with the following from the Official Baseball Rules:

9.02(c)
...No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

It doesn't get any more black and white than that. You can pre-arrange an "I can help" signal, as some associations and crews do - ours is arms folded across the chest - or you can put yourself in reasonable proximity to any discussion and try to let your partner know by body language that you might have some input to offer. Other than that, you can do NOTHING unless asked by your partner for help.

The only time you may legally overrule a partner is under OBR 9.04(c), when two umpires with joint jurisdiction make different decisions on the same play. Then, IF you are the UIC or designated Crew Chief, you may decide which umpire had the best chance of making the correct call and overrule the other.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by thumpferee
I've always made a call as BU based on what I saw and go with my first instinct. I figured if there was a pulled foot or a tag/no tag, I could always go to my partner and change the call if warranted. I was told this wasn't the correct mechanic.

From my understanding of the mechanic is, if there is a question on a pulled foot or swipe tag, the BU should point to his partner for him to make the call. Just hope your partner is on it.

Just to cause some contraversy, IMO, I don't agree with that mechanic.

What happens if your partner is getting the bat out of the way, or was watching action at third, or just wasn't looking?

You pointing to him meaning you are not sure, he shrugs his shoulders, the call at first is now a guess.

Looking forward to your comments.

Check the recent thread on PULLED FOOT MECHANIC AND TIMING for a detailed discussion of that mechanic. There isn't much difference for the swipe tag.

Basically, you should only go to your partner for help BEFORE you've made a call IF you are in doubt as to whether the fielder held the base or applied a tag. The correct mechanic is to point to your partner and ask

1. "Bill, did he hold the bag?", or

2. "Bill, did you see a tag?"

Depending upon the answer then YOU make the call, not your partner. You are getting assistance to make YOUR call, and NOT handing over the call to your partner. If he's not looking, for whatever reason, YOU must make a decision based on what you have or have not seen.

• Out is better than Safe on the pulled foot, and

• Safe is better than Out when you have any doubts about the tag.

That way you can argue that you've called only what you actually saw.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Jul 12th, 2003 at 09:45 AM]

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by wobster

My question is this. How certain do you have to be to over-rule your BU's call. There have been many where I thought the BU was wrong, and the stands exploded, but I wasn't totally sure he was wrong, so I let the call stand. I usually get some comments after the game that I should have over-ruled him, but I am 75 feet away and he is 5. I would have a hard time justifying it unless I was 100% sure.

You DO NOT overturn your partner's call UNLESS he /she asks for your help and for very good reason.

The game would be chaotic if umpires were allowed to simply over-rule one another.

Think of it this way. None of us are perfect and as PU we will miss a pitch. Now as PU would you want your partner the BU overturning your strike or ball call? Answer NO

Same is true on the bases, unless asked do not say anything.

The time for saying something is AFTER the game and it's called a POST game conference, talk etc. It is also done AWAY from EVERYONE. That's where you and your partner can "air things out". Hopefully both you and your partner have attended some training on the 2 person mechanics.

There some literature out explaining the 2 person mechanic but IMO there is nothing like going to a clinic and seeing for yourself.

Pete Booth

[wobster]

PeteBooth, thanks for the suggestion on the clinics. Is there a listing of all the clinics somewhere? I have been trying to find a few to attend, but have been unsuccessful in locating any in this area. I am in northern indiana. Any help is appreciated.

BTW: It is a pleasure to get ideas and suggestions from umpires who have been doing this for a long time. There aren't many veterans in my area who are willing to help.

Chad