Over-ruling partner

[wobster]

First off, I am relatively new to umpiring, only been doing it for 3 or so years. I do mostly little league at one diamond, but have done some 1/2 pint (10-13 years old, really good players for that age) games. My question is this. How certain do you have to be to over-rule your BU's call. There have been many where I thought the BU was wrong, and the stands exploded, but I wasn't totally sure he was wrong, so I let the call stand. I usually get some comments after the game that I should have over-ruled him, but I am 75 feet away and he is 5. I would have a hard time justifying it unless I was 100% sure.

[w_sohl]

You BETTER be 200% sure, without a doubt in your mind that s/he is wrong and you are correct. But you never overrule, you give your partner the information and let them decide what to do with it. Your parnter changes their own call.

[Lonewolf986]

Loyalty. If he starts to do jumping jacks, I suggest you participate.

[JEL]

My understanding is, both umpires have equal authority to make calls on the field. I don't believe one has a right to over-rule another. You do have a right, and obligation to call the game properly. If you are calling with me, call time and say (to me only) I think you kicked it, I saw it this way. If you convince me, I'll reverse my call. This may not work with all umpires though, I doubt many others will appreciate it. You stated "I thought the BU might be wrong" I think a lot of times they are wrong, but they are right on top of the play, it may be me who is wrong! Please also if after the game fans want to discuss your partners performance, politely refuse to do so, remember, he is on your team. Even if you are 100% sure, you can't over-rule your partner, or grant an appeal on his call. I am grateful to the guys,and gals who have treated me thus, it has made me a better umpire, and earned respect-both ways!

[chuckfan1]

What someone taught me a few years ago, was on the few times we conferred about a play, and the even more rare times we might have changed something was this: Get together and discuss it. If your partner has something to add thats different to what you got, and it might alter your call, just say to the coach, "Coach, after conferring with my partner, I received some additional information that the initial call needs to be changed. Heres what were going to do....blah blah blah..etc." The coach doesnt always agree of course, but by using "additional information" it lends credence to WHY we conferred, and WHY were altering the call.

[wobster]

thank you for the great advice. I am still a greenhorn at this and always looking to the opinions of established members of the umpiring community. I will be getting certified by the High School Association next year, and I will need all the knowledge I can get.

So instead of just over-ruling him, no matter how wrong he is, I should go out and talk to him about it and ask him what he saw. Makes a lot of sense.

[douglas childress]

Originally posted by wobster
thank you for the great advice. I am still a greenhorn at this and always looking to the opinions of established members of the umpiring community. I will be getting certified by the High School Association next year, and I will need all the knowledge I can get.

So instead of just over-ruling him, no matter how wrong he is, I should go out and talk to him about it and ask him what he saw. Makes a lot of sense.

Let him/her come to you. Don't go to them and say hey i think you made a bad call. Again let them come to YOU

[wobster]

ok, thanks for the clarification. Also, from what I have read on this forum, if a BU or UIC makes a questionable call, and a coach/manager asks for an appeal, they should be directed to the Umpire who made the call, and the other should not offer an opinion unless asked by his partner. Correct or not?

[douglas childress]

Originally posted by wobster
ok, thanks for the clarification. Also, from what I have read on this forum, if a BU or UIC makes a questionable call, and a coach/manager asks for an appeal, they should be directed to the Umpire who made the call, and the other should not offer an opinion unless asked by his partner. Correct or not?

Correct never offer. Wait for them to ask you for your opinon.

[greymule]

I have worked so often with three or four umpires that on certain plays we'll practically overrule the other without being asked. For example, runner slides in at 3B, BU from his position sees a tag out. But PU can see that the ball came out after the tag and then bounced back into the fielder's glove, but the runner's body blocked PU's view. PU will say right away something like, "You couldn't see it, Jimmy. The ball came out."

Same with a pulled foot at 1B, etc. It may not be the book mechanic, but when obvious wrong calls are corrected immediately, they're more likely to be accepted. But this kind of operation can work only with umpires who trust each other fully.

Never on regular safe-out calls at 1B or things like that. It would have to be on the type of call where the offended team is obviously going to be asking for an appeal anyway.

[douglas childress]

Originally posted by greymule
I have worked so often with three or four umpires that on certain plays we'll practically overrule the other without being asked. For example, runner slides in at 3B, BU from his position sees a tag out. But PU can see that the ball came out after the tag and then bounced back into the fielder's glove, but the runner's body blocked PU's view. PU will say right away something like, "You couldn't see it, Jimmy. The ball came out."

Same with a pulled foot at 1B, etc. It may not be the book mechanic, but when obvious wrong calls are corrected immediately, they're more likely to be accepted. But this kind of operation can work only with umpires who trust each other fully.

Never on regular safe-out calls at 1B or things like that. It would have to be on the type of call where the offended team is obviously going to be asking for an appeal anyway.

I agree, Also nothing says that you have to wait for the coach to ask for the appeal. If you feel that you were out of position ask your partner right away for help.

[gobama84]

Originally posted by Lonewolf986
Loyalty. If he starts to do jumping jacks, I suggest you participate.

That's FUNNY!!!!

[Lonewolf986]

Originally posted by douglas childress

Let him/her come to you. Don't go to them and say hey i think you made a bad call. Again let them come to YOU

I agree Doug, when I first started umpiring, I also had some partners (30-40yrs MORE experience on me) say to me if I blew a call, "wow, that was a close play at 2nd."

If I was secure that I made the right call, then they/he would agree and say, keep it up (though, there are times when they were just trying to make conversation...and just saying it because they really did think it was close)but most of the time, when I blew one, I knew i did, so my answer would be..."well.....yeah, uh...."

After my "shaky" answer, my partner would make a suggestion on how to better "see" the call. His coming to me and allowing me to think if I made the right call, really helped. I don't ever think a parnter should overrule, but I really liked what Chuckfan had to say, about "conferring."

I had one partner who would "confer" everytime a coach got real antzy...he'd walk up to me and say "How's life..." and then walk back after my answer and say "After reviewing the plays, the play stands..." And often times I have found that that's all the coach needed. (Though after thinking about it, if the coach got mad at the call...all my partner did, was spread the "blame" to me. hmmm)

[Lonewolf986]

What do you think about this?

I've had to do this, when I am straight-lined at 1st. (C position)

When theres a play at first, I look at my partner if he is OUT (from my angle...Ball beats the runner), if my partner gives me the sign that his foot was off the bag, then I make a sign of "SAFE" (all I ask for from my partner is the pulled leg)

This decision is almost simultaneous

If he is SAFE or I SEE the pulled foot, then I dont need to look at my Pard.

If the runner is out from my angle, I glance at my partner, who tells me if he was on the bag or not, if not, then I call safe...

Though, I've only been able to do this with a few Umps, not many can coordinate that well

Ideas, comments, SUGGESTIONS on how to do this better?

[douglas childress]

Originally posted by Lonewolf986
What do you think about this?

I've had to do this, when I am straight-lined at 1st. (C position)

When theres a play at first, I look at my partner if he is OUT (from my angle...Ball beats the runner), if my partner gives me the sign that his foot was off the bag, then I make a sign of "SAFE" (all I ask for from my partner is the pulled leg)

This decision is almost simultaneous

If he is SAFE or I SEE the pulled foot, then I dont need to look at my Pard.

If the runner is out from my angle, I glance at my partner, who tells me if he was on the bag or not, if not, then I call safe...

Though, I've only been able to do this with a few Umps, not many can coordinate that well

Ideas, comments, SUGGESTIONS on how to do this better?

What i like to do is if i'm the PU and my PARD is in the infield or behind 2B or SS with runners on base i will take the call at first only bacause i feel i would have the better angle. Your Thoughts on this