Pulled foot mechanic and timing

[GarthB]

Missed calls are part of sports and part of life. I'm sure the kids will survive such tragedy.


Oh, ye gads. Now you've done it.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Warren Willson
[B[
BTW, I am still waiting for your apology for those earlier stupid, gratuitous and disgusting personal remarks implying I might have sexual proclivities toward animals! I'll have nothing further to say to you on any subject before then! Of couse I'm NOT holding my breath!
[/B]

Certainly you are correct, Warren, that it was a cheap shot.
It came as a counter-punch to the cheap shots you took at me in a different thread. I believe you were the first to allow the rhetoric to sway from the truth. I doubt if anyone truly believed me about your "mate", as it was clear to see that you had twisted the words within the other thread. My apologies for the low blow. (I hope you won't consider that apology an illegally reversed decision).

While we will always likely disagree on this subject, it's certainly up to other readers to choose for themselves what is best for them. Obviously Rich and Garth may be of the same school as you---supported by 19th century written rule and custom.

OTH, I truly believe that I am in the majority of umpires on this issue. That includes the majority from all levels. While depending on your partner to make your calls is not and should not be a regularity among officials, officiating in all of sport (including baseball) continues to grow and to further lean toward the importance of getting the call right at the cost of the embarrassment it may mean to the responsible official. Still, that action of changing a call and risking embarrassment still remains the choice of the responsible official---an important point to note. It is not a "demand" put upon him, but rather his choice as an option when asked to reconsider all the factors of the decision that are available to him. Frankly, Warren, I am far more embarrassed by an obviously blown call than I am a reversed decision. The teams prefer more accurate play calling, so both support the best choice for me to make.

Not a single rules body says it is illegal to change a call---only you, Warren.
New interpretations continue to evolve, and you are simply wrong when you state it is "illegal" to change a call. Current interpretation allows for it, and the various rules bodies in written word promote correcting a call when possible. There are many more precedents accepted within the leagues playing under those rules. Somehow, you continue to ignore those writings, Warren.........


Freix

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Bfair

Certainly you are correct, Warren, that it was a cheap shot.
It came as a counter-punch to the cheap shots you took at me in a different thread. I believe you were the first to allow the rhetoric to sway from the truth. I doubt if anyone truly believed me about your "mate", as it was clear to see that you had twisted the words within the other thread. My apologies for the low blow. (I hope you won't consider that apology an illegally reversed decision).

No, I don't "consider that apology an illegally reversed decision." In fact I don't consider it an apology at all! You make it sound as though it was MY fault that you resorted to those disgusting personal implications about my sexual proclivities! You water it down even further by suggesting it was only a "low blow" in what might otherwise be considered a "fair fight"(sic).

Fact: I have NEVER referred to your sexual proclivities, sexual orientation or anything else so patently personal and irrelevant - especially not to counter a logical argument about umpiring on a discussion board! Let me leave you with a homily that might serve you well in future:

BRILLIANT MINDS DISCUSS IDEAS

AVERAGE MINDS DISCUSS EVENTS

SMALL MINDS DISCUSS PEOPLE

The air between us remains decidely foul smelling and unclear.

Have a nice day.

[Jurassic Referee]

Gee,we ALL get along on the basketball forum!

[GarthB]

While we will always likely disagree on this subject, it's certainly up to other readers to choose for themselves what is best for them. Obviously Rich and Garth may be of the same school as you---supported by 19th century written rule and custom.


Cute. You've certainly learned a lot in the last four years Freix. I'm sure everyone is impressed with your rhetorical skills. You not only position others where you wnat them, you even provide the basis for their backward thinking and ignorant ways. How thoughtful you've become.

[chris s]

Deeper than I would go! All-star kid ball here....PONY "white-coats" have meetings with managerial staffs(mgr/coach/business mgr), some of the rules they impose are crazy!

But, back to this "HELP" thing, very simple...check swing, always(cuz the ask is coming, I agree with Osborne on this) Pulled foot at first, GET YOUR CALLS!!! I tell the skippers, "don't come out on judgement calls" But then again, I take my time and get it right...the plays at the sacks call themselves!!! If umps did not have that natural propensity to "call the play as fast as you can", we would not even be here! TIMING!!!!!!!!

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by chris s
Pulled foot at first, GET YOUR CALLS!!! I tell the skippers, "don't come out on judgement calls" But then again, I take my time and get it right...the plays at the sacks call themselves!!! If umps did not have that natural propensity to "call the play as fast as you can", we would not even be here! TIMING!!!!!!!!

Indeed, Chris, and as Mr Evans tells anyone who attends his 5 week school in Florida:

GOOD TIMING = THE PROPER USE OF THE EYES.

IOW, if you wait until you've seen ALL there is to see on the play BEFORE making your call, then you are unlikely to get caught out making obviously bad calls.

Cheers

[PatF]

I appreciate all that has been written in this thread about when and how (and when not) to allow an "appeal" of a judgement call. I had no idea my scenario would generate such a debate. I think the dead horse has been thoroughly beaten by now. It also seems obvious that there are no clear cut absolutes on the topic.

With regard to my original scenario... I saw everything I was going to see before I made my call. I could have waited for three days to make the out call and I would still NOT have seen the pulled foot by F3 from the C position.

Since there is no apparent accepted practice for handling this type of situation, it seems that each individual must let his conscience be his guide in handling any given scenario. Thanks for your thoughts.

[GarthB]

I appreciate all that has been written in this thread about when and how (and when not) to allow an "appeal" of a judgement call... It also seems obvious that there are no clear cut absolutes on the topic.

You have observed correctly.

With regard to my original scenario... I saw everything I was going to see before I made my call. I could have waited for three days to make the out call and I would still NOT have seen the pulled foot by F3 from the C position.

That being the case, you probably did the right thing. All some of us are suggesting is that when that happens, when you feel you absolutely need to get help, go ahead, but don't stop there. Afterwards, spend the time to analyze why you didn't see what you needed to see and try to determine if there was something you could have done, something you can do in the future, to see what you need to see to not need help.


[Edited by GarthB on Jul 18th, 2003 at 10:27 AM]

[Rich]

I agree with Garth.

Don't use this experience as something that validates your choice in going for help. Rather, evaluate your mechanics that put you in that place.

I'm in C. Ground ball to F6. As the ball is hit, I'm stepping up and letting the ball turn me, cross-stepping towards the working area behind the mound. Once I determine the ball is going to first base, I take a few quick steps towards the start of the 45' lane and come set in time for the ball to arrive.

It takes a lot of practice and a lot of hustle to work the bases correctly.

Too many times I've had partners come to me for help on plays like this (where they start in C). When they ask, they are still standing near the C position. Those umpires don't need to know whether asking for help is OK, they need to know if moving after the ball is hit is OK :-)

Rich

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I agree with Garth.

Don't use this experience as something that validates your choice in going for help. Rather, evaluate your mechanics that put you in that place.

I'm in C. Ground ball to F6. As the ball is hit, I'm stepping up and letting the ball turn me, cross-stepping towards the working area behind the mound. Once I determine the ball is going to first base, I take a few quick steps towards the start of the 45' lane and come set in time for the ball to arrive.

It takes a lot of practice and a lot of hustle to work the bases correctly.

Too many times I've had partners come to me for help on plays like this (where they start in C). When they ask, they are still standing near the C position. Those umpires don't need to know whether asking for help is OK, they need to know if moving after the ball is hit is OK :-)

Rich

Sorry, Rich, but in big boy ball you can't overcommit to 1B too soon. The first play in the infield belongs to BU unless at home. R2 may be too far off 2B drawing a throw there, or possibly even advancing to 3B. You don't always know where F6 will go with his play, but it's usually BU's call.

Big boys throw harder and provide little time for covering distance or adjusting angles after showing their commitment of the throw. If that throw to 1B is off-line it may cause F3 to reach directly toward BU. There is no way YOU or anyone can predict that or adjust for it within a second or two.

The 2-man system is inherently weak with BU starting in C position. It's the system, not the person; yet some people can react better within the system no differently then some have better zones than others. Still, there is no fail-safe on this play. It can happen to anyone.

Don't let anyone make you believe you are a weak umpire or have poor mechanics because you may occasionally get straight-lined by F3 reaching on a play at 1B. It happens to everyone, whether it's admitted or not.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[GarthB]

See Rich? You do one week-end of Little League and you're not a "big boy" umpire anymore.

I warned you about going to the dark side.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by GarthB
See Rich? You do one week-end of Little League and you're not a "big boy" umpire anymore.

I warned you about going to the dark side.

I noted you didn't disagree, Garth, or provide any reasons to the contrary on how YOU manage to avoid straight-line calls when starting in C position.


Freix

[chris s]

Nobody mentioned this fine idea of UDP/PBUC....guess we got some "stationary umps"LOL Garth nailed it for PatF, live and learn...Lord knows I have.as Warren says.cheers guys, me got a nice cold MGD and 3 day weekend ahead(well, MSBL on Sunday, oh well)

[chris s]

Originally posted by Bfair

I noted you didn't disagree, Garth, or provide any reasons to the contrary on how YOU manage to avoid straight-line calls when starting in C position.


Freix

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
You can always MOVE!!! Little thing they call angle....