Sorry in advance for the length of this post.

Tournament game. Managers are told by the tournament director that they are the only reps from their teams allowed to address the umpires. They are also told if they have a question on a call, they are to request time and go the umpire that made the call.

2 outs, runner on 2B. I'm BU in position C. Grounder to short stop. Throw to 1B clearly beats the BR, but I am straight-lined on the throw. I signal the out and am unaware that the throw pulled F3 off the bag. BR heads for the dugout and defense heads off the field. There was no immediate reaction or response from the team at bat that would indicate a pulled foot.

First base coach goes to my partner at the plate and says that F3 was off the bag. Partner tells the base coach that only the manager can appeal the call and that manager must go to the umpire that made the call. Manager is in the dugout and apparently didn't even see the play. Base coach relays this info to manager. Manager comes to me and appeals the pulled foot. I go to partner and partner verifies that F3 was off the bag. Defense has totally cleared the field and team at bat has begun to take the field by this time.

How should this situation have been handled and what should have been the final ruling?

sounds as if it was handled ok. the first base coach was told the correct info. after discussing with plate umpire, if he confirms the pulled foot, base umpire changes call and put the batter/runer on first. defense assumes their positions and next hitter is up.

I can't believe this didn't lead to ejections.

The players left the field THEN you entertained a manager's request for help? Why didn't you just wait for the other team to get on the field and warmup, too?

When the manager comes out, simply say "I'm not asking my partner." Then go out to right field, enjoy the between-inning break, and start the next half-inning.

Managers are not ENTITLED to appeal plays. Umpires are not REQUIRED to appeal anything, except a check swing.

My first inclination was to "fix it" and that is what I told my partner we would do. As soon as I said those words to my partner, I realized that the defense had already cleared the field. I then told partner the manager was too late to appeal the play.

I went to the manager and told him that his appeal was too late since the defense had left the field. He did not rant and rave. He calmly stated "this isn't right". He said he wanted to protest my decision. I halted play and got the tournament director involved. I explained what had happened to the TD and that the manager was protesting my decision not to accept his appeal. I also explained that once the defense had left the field, his opportunity to appeal had gone away, by rule. TD agreed and told the manager his protest was denied. Manager didn't like it, but he accepted the decision and he even thanked me for getting the TD involved in the decision. His team was getting pounded and it was just a matter of time before the game would be over anyhow. It never got heated and I never felt there was any need to escalate the situation by throwing coaches.

I felt bad that I blew the call by missing the pulled foot. I felt worse for the team because their manager and coaches hadn't been paying attention to the game and how they were supposed to appeal the call.

<b>How should this situation have been handled and what should have been the final ruling?</b>

"Say, coach, why didn't you wait until the team got on the bus to ask me? We're not discussing a judgment call that occured in the previous half inning."

Like Rich, I'm amazed there were no ejections on this call. Was it T-Ball?

Just for the record, I agree with Rich and Garth that you shouldn't have entertained the coach's request to even check with your partner on that judgement decision. See OBR 9.02(a) for the possible consequences of the coach's action.

That said, here is how you are expected to handle these situations:<ol><li>Only get help from your partner BEFORE you make a call on the play, and then only if absolutely necessary<p><li>If you were unsighted, point to your partner and ask "<i>Bill, did he hold the base?</i>"<p><li>When your partner responds, THEN make your "<i>Safe</i>" or "<i>Out</i>" call as appropriate. Make sure you include the "<i>He was OFF the bag</i>" call, and signal with both arms sweeping away from the base in the direction the fielder was off the base.<p><li>NEVER ask AFTER you've made your judgement call AND you've been approached by a manager or coach, as a matter of good game management.</ol>You can change your own mind on any judgement call, even though that's evidence of bad mechanics, although some calls are NOT reversable once they've been made during live play. But once you have been approached by a participant, only clear rule misapplications should result in any variation to your original call. Judgement calls are NOT protestable. If a coach approaches you after you've made such a call, simply say<ul> "<i>Sorry, coach, that's a judgement call and I've already made my decision. If I had your view on the play I might have seen it differently. That's baseball.</i>"</ul>Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Jul 11th, 2003 at 06:58 PM]

Thanks Warren. You provided the info I was looking for.

you arent required to appeal check swings. if you as a plate umpire feel that it is questionable you can ask for help, but it is certainly not required.

<b>you arent required to appeal check swings. if you as a plate umpire feel that it is questionable you can ask for help, but it is certainly not required.</b>

OBR 9.02 (c) comment, second paragraph:

<I>"Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of a ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire<b> MUST</b> refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the halfswing."</I>

Oh yeah you sure are :)

That is the one play where you are REQUIRED to check your call.

If there was doubt in your mind that you may have missed the call, then you handled it properly. Don't acquiesce to a coach's request simply to appease him. Check your partner only if you feel there may have been something that you missed in the call <u><B>AND</u></B> that your partner was in better position to see that point of question than you were. Don't seek his opinion on the timing of the play.

The coach initiated his appeal when the play ended, regardless of how long it took. Still, the decision is not bound to the restrictions of....until all infielder including the pitcher leave fair territory. That restriction is for appeal of baserunning infractions only. This was not a baserunning infraction. This decision is bound to whether you wish to accept it or not.

<hr width=50%>
Getting help and changing an obviously blown call is neither wrong nor illegal.
I am not saying it should always be done, nor am I saying it should be used as crutch for initially poor judgment calls. What I am saying, however, is that it is <u>not illegal</u> for the responsible official to change his judgment call---under any set of baseball rules. OBR supports it, PBUC supports it, Fed supports it, and NCAA supports it. None will tell you that it is good mechanics. However, it is preferred to correct an obvious mistake instead of living with an obviously poor call---OBR, PBUC, and NCAA specifically state that while the Fed examples it in caseplay.

The best mechanic is to seek that help from the PU before making the call at 1B if you are in doubt concerning a pulled foot or a swipe tag. Consider the runner safe until out. That is, word your question to the PU such that his postive response of "YES" results in an out.
<ol><li>Did he hold the base?
<LI>Did you see a tag?</ol>
What you are truly saying is that you did not see those actions occur and that you have the runner safe pending that added information.

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Situations of seeking help on a pulled foot should seldom arise except for instances where you start in C position in a 2 man crew. Don't listen to those who tell you inability to judge a pulled foot is weak umpiring---it's not. It's a weakness in a 2 man system; not the umpire.

AS BU you are responsible for the first call in the infield---which could be at 3B. You can't always abandon a mid-field location if there is possibility the first play will be at 3B. Therefore, you can't always position yourself for the best angle at 1B on a pulled foot if the play happens to go there.
PU frequently has a better angle a play, and that's especially true if the play develops with F3 reaching directly toward you. If you've got a crappy angle, PU is likely to have a much better angle.

Furthermore, in working with unfamiliar partners---something common in amateur baseball---you can't always be certain your PU is watching the foot at 1B. That can make it difficult to check him before making a call at 1B---something that <u>must</u> be done even when you are in doubt regarding the touch of the foot. Many PU's hightail to 3B for plays that never occur, thus never watching the play at 1B (something I was taught to always watch). If you go to him immediately, you risk the chance of getting a "deer in the headlights" response from someone who saw nothing at 1B. If you know your partner and are confident he's there to assist, or if you've discussed it pregame, then go to him before making this call. If you don't immediately seek help <u>but are in doubt regarding a tag or a pulled foot</u>, I'd recommend a safe call since it allows play to continue. It's much easier to change a safe call to out vs. out to safe should you later elect to seek that help for whatever reason.

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Here's an excerpt from a post made by Jon Bible, an ex-professional and reknowned veteran college umpire having worked 7 College World Series.
He posted this 5/6/02 at URC:
<ul>A couple of years ago I banged the back end of a double play at first, with the first baseman stretching toward me (toward right field). As soon as I did, all hell broke loose and here came the first base and head coaches. Right there I had a small hint that something was not right. When I looked up and saw David Wiley at second base easing toward me, it was immediately apparent from his body language that he was coming not to get the troops off of me and make it a one-on-one, but instead to tell me something. So I immediately put my hands up and said "Wait a second. . . " and asked Wiley if the foot had come off the bag. He said, "only about two feet or so," so I immediately changed the call.
[my emphasis]
The point is that Wiley did not jump right in yelling "his foot was off the bag," but instead created a situation in which I would know to ask for help and then do so. IMHO, that is the best way to handle judgment plays, unlike rule plays, where I continue to believe what I have already said earlier.</ul>
<hr width=50%>
To those advocating it's wrong to seek help or change a call, I ask:
<ol><li>Can you provide any <u>authoritative</u> written training or documentation that negates the emphasis of the rules bodies regarding the official's need to attempt to get the call correct over his perceived dignity?
<li>Why is PU taught to go down the 1B line and watch the play if not for the purpose of providing help, if needed, and to watch for balls going to DBT?</ol>
When you are certain your partner, the PU, is prepared to answer your question of doubt,
<u>it looks like and is great team coordination</u> in seeking his help and getting the call right.

<b>There is no dignity in adhering an obviously blown call if the situation allows for its correction.</b>


Just my opinion,

Freix

Excellent explanation Bfair......and the correct process as well. Hopefully a couple of the prior posters to this subject will read and understand the right way to handle this situation.

What Rubbish!
 

Rubbish! OBR 9.02(a) says:<ul>Any umpire's decision which involves judgement, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is <b>final</b>. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgement decisions.{<i>my emphasis</i>}</ul>Furthermore, OBR 2.00 defines ILLEGAL as "<i>contrary to these rules</i>".

Taking the two provisions and using them properly in concert you get the following facts:<ol><li>Judgement decisions are NOT appealable, or even open to question<p><li>Any player, manager, coach or substitute who objects to a judgement decision is clearly in breach of the provisions of Rule 9.02(a) - regardless of how polite was their approach or how "right" they feel they may be on the facts as <i>they</i> saw them.<p><li>Appealing a judgement decision contrary to the provisions of Rule 9.02(a) is ILLEGAL, because that act IS "<i>contrary to these rules</i>".<p><li>Changing a judgement decision that the rule describes as "<b>final</b>" is also "<i>contrary to these rules</i>" and so ILLEGAL by definition.</ol>It is certainly NOT illegal for an umpire to <i>change his mind</i> on any judgement call. But that should only occur BEFORE he has made a decision AND BEFORE he has been approached by a participant objecting to or "appealing" that decision. It IS "illegal" - ie. "<i>contrary to these rules</i>" - for a judgement decision to even be questioned by a participant, much less changed as the direct result of such an illegal objection or appeal.

Only RULE MISAPPLICATIONS are properly open to appeal under OBR 9.02(b) and (c). Take note that 9.02(c), mandating the seeking of help from another umpire in response to an appeal, ONLY applies in respect of such RULE MISAPPLICATIONS and clearly does NOT apply in regard to JUDGEMENT DECISIONS. Getting help otherwise would be "<i>contrary to these rules</i>, and so also ILLEGAL by definition!

I do NOT propose to have anything further to say to BFair on this subject. I believe I have set the record straight with this post in response. I will NOT be drawn into a protracted debate with BFair over such ridiculous claims as have been made here. BFair well knows my views on the subject, and is merely trolling for the reopening of an old argument. He's out of luck!

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Jul 12th, 2003 at 08:13 AM]

sorry, didnt realize you were talking OBR rules. im wrong on that then.

For the record...
 

I do need to make two things perfectly clear, as regards the changing of judgement calls:<ol><li>There are certain times when the umpire <b>must</b> "<i>change his mind</i>" in order to correct an "<i>obviously blown call</i>". Here are just three salient examples:

<ol type="i"><li>Changing a call of Fair to Foul - permitted because no game action can follow the call of Foul.<p><li>Changing a call of Foul to Fair - permitted only providing the change is almost immediate, and not participant has reacted to the original call.<p><li>Changing a call of Out to Safe - immediately after having noticed the ball on the ground following the Out call.</ol>
There are at least five (5) such occasions when changing an obviously blown judgment call is traditionally mandated. None of those would normally be possible AFTER an illegal objection from a participant.<p><li>The fact that a judgement decision that is "<b>final</b>" may NOT be LEGALLY changed, according to OBR 9.02(a), does NOT prevent an umpire from changing that call anyway. It would be extremely unlikely that any protest argument would be entertained on that point. There are so many things that umpires do according to History and Tradition that are clearly ILLEGAL, by the literal wording of the rules, that I doubt any protest committee would want to open that particular can of worms.</ol>All the same, just because a judgement call CAN be changed in certain circumstances does not mean that it SHOULD be changed. I have pointed out before that the umpire has TWO responsibilities under OBR 9.01(a)<ol><li>Conduct of the game in accordance with the rules, and<p><li>The maintenance of discipline and order on the playing field.</ol>Umpires who repeatedly change their judgement decisions will often find themselves embroilled in rampant ill-discipline and disorder on the playing field. Umpire dignity may not be the be-all and end-all where judgement decisions are concerned, but it is an <i><b>essential</b></i> element for effective game management. That is why umpires MUST be circumspect about changing their judgement decisions.

The case given earlier where respected NCAA umpire Jon Bible changed an obviously blown judgement call was an excellent example of the umpire choosing his game management role in preference to the sanctity of his judgement call BECAUSE ill-discipline and disorder were already in evidence. I'd be willing to bet there were many, MANY more occasions in his illustrious career where he has stuck with a marginally less obvious blown call for the sake of maintaining his authority on the diamond throughout the balance of the game.

Finally, before anyone naively recites the provisions of the <i>General Instructions to Umpires</i> that follow OBR 9.05(c) in the rule book, they should first read, mark and inwardly digest the entire contents of Section 7 of the NAPBL/PBUC Umpire Manual. That supercedes the copy of General Instructions in the rule book, just like any other interpretation, and it makes significant variances to the language of the rule book version.

Particular attention should be paid to NAPBL/PBUC 7.22(1) in regard to when and why an umpire should ask for help. Be especially careful to try and understand what it means for your "<i>objective</i>" to be "<i>to have all decisions ultimately correct</i>", as opposed to the rule book admonition that "<i>the first requisite is to get decisions correctly</i>". They are most certainly NOT one in the same thing. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to provide an example that proves the difference.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Jul 12th, 2003 at 06:10 PM]