Holiday Slide - Legal or Not?

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

MLB.com Must C | Must C Collision: Holliday slides into Scutaro - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia
What say you? I am a Giants fan, so I will provide my biased, emotional opinion. Illegal slide, I have 2 outs.

This video angers me. There was nothing about that slide that was an attempt to get to the base. The defensive player was beyond the bag and the "slide" was not for any reason but to try to break up a double play.

I realize the pros do things differently but making a lot of money shouldn't excuse unnecessary violent collisions.

In the games I do, there would be two outs and an ejection.

Rita

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rita C

There was nothing about that slide that was an attempt to get to the base. The defensive player was beyond the bag and the "slide" was not for any reason but to try to break up a double play.

And, as you know Rita, there is nothing illegal about that in straight-up OBR.

Two things to look for:
1. Could Holliday reach the bag? Yes he could. In fact, he hit the top of the base with his leg.
2. Was there a cross body block or rolling block? Most agree here that there wasn't.

If Holliday had executed the exact same slide with Scutaro on either side of the bag, and Holliday could reach the bag with his hand, nobody would say a peep. The same is true had Scutaro been in front (first base side) of the base. So why should it be any different on the back side of the base?

The only anomaly, if you will, is that Holliday started his slide on top of the bag, not in front or to the side. But nothing in OBR makes that illegal. Heck, he could've started a slide after he passed over the bag, and as long as he could reach back and touch the bag with his hand while sliding, he meets the rule requirement.

Yeah, there's no doubt what he was intending on doing. And if Scutaro had leaped over Holliday, or even gotten up right away after the contact, there would have been no outcries. But because Scutaro got hurt, people want to scream "ILLEGAL!" especially Giants fans who still have the Posey incident fresh in their memories.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If Holliday had executed the exact same slide with Scutaro on either side of the bag, and Holliday could reach the bag with his hand, nobody would say a peep. The same is true had Scutaro been in front (first base side) of the base. So why should it be any different on the back side of the base?

The only anomaly, if you will, is that Holliday started his slide on top of the bag, not in front or to the side. But nothing in OBR makes that illegal. Heck, he could've started a slide after he passed over the bag, and as long as he could reach back and touch the bag with his hand while sliding, he meets the rule requirement.

Yeah, there's no doubt what he was intending on doing. And if Scutaro had leaped over Holliday, or even gotten up right away after the contact, there would have been no outcries. But because Scutaro got hurt, people want to scream "ILLEGAL!" especially Giants fans who still have the Posey incident fresh in their memories.

No there isn't an intent to hurt anyone. But that means nothing. Because, if nothing else, they are relying on the fear of getting hurt to break up the double play.

Rita

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rita C

This video angers me.

Why? Why would you, the umpire, allow yourself to be angry at all?

I work small college and HS varsity and an ejection would never even cross my mind. His intent isn't to injure -- it's to break up the double play. It's a FPSR violation and I'm getting 2 outs, but it's nothing more in my mind.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Rich

Why? Why would you, the umpire, allow yourself to be angry at all?

I work small college and HS varsity and an ejection would never even cross my mind. His intent isn't to injure -- it's to break up the double play. It's a FPSR violation and I'm getting 2 outs, but it's nothing more in my mind.

I agree, emotions have little to do with this. If your employer and the rules you officiate by allow this to happen, (whether it was good or bad, viscious or not), then you are paid to enforce accordingly.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I agree, emotions have little to do with this. If your employer and the rules you officiate by allow this to happen, (whether it was good or bad, viscious or not), then you are paid to enforce accordingly.

And I would, if I were officiating there.

Doesn't mean I would have to like it.

And my emotions are for me here in my easy chair at my laptop.

Rita

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rita C

And I would, if I were officiating there.

Doesn't mean I would have to like it.

And my emotions are for me here in my easy chair at my laptop.

Rita

My question to you is: Why would you care?

I don't tend to like or dislike things like this. I just call it the way I'm told.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Rich

My question to you is: Why would you care?

I don't tend to like or dislike things like this. I just call it the way I'm told.

Because I'm not like you, Rich.

Rita

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Rich

Why? Why would you, the umpire, allow yourself to be angry at all?

I work small college and HS varsity and an ejection would never even cross my mind. His intent isn't to injure -- it's to break up the double play. It's a FPSR violation and I'm getting 2 outs, but it's nothing more in my mind.

Because I think it should be illegal.

Maybe it's the mom in me.

Rita

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rita C

In the games I do, there would be two outs and an ejection.

Rita

Originally Posted by Rita C

Because I think it should be illegal.

Maybe it's the mom in me.

Rita

I'm a little confused by this. In what leagues is this an ejection? Or, is it an ejection only because you think it should be illegal? (and to be clear, I'm asking sincereely -- to seek clarification. Not in any accusatory sense.)

I agree it's two outs in FED and NCAA (and probably most other leagues that have adopted some sort of FPSR).

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm a little confused by this. In what leagues is this an ejection? Or, is it an ejection only because you think it should be illegal? (and to be clear, I'm asking sincereely -- to seek clarification. Not in any accusatory sense.)

I agree it's two outs in FED and NCAA (and probably most other leagues that have adopted some sort of FPSR).

I can see this being considered malicious contact in FED.

[johnnyg08]

I don't think this would be considered malicious in FED. In FED, I'd have a FPSR violation.

[zm1283]

If you call this MC in FED, you're a plumber.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I can see this being considered malicious contact in FED.

Yeah, based on some of the FED guys I've seen work, I'd think there would be people who would call this MC too. (Not that I agree)

[RPatrino]

A couple of thoughts/questions on some recent posts.

1) What part of this slide was NOT a cross body block? Just curious, because Holliday made contact with the side of his body, hip area, as I see it. There was actual no slide per se, just a sideways dive into the player behind the bag and incidental contact with the bag.

2) This to me, was not an attempt to injure. I could see some calling it MC for FED, not in NCAA. I have FPSR violations in both though. The part that borders on MC for ME is the fact that the target for the runner was the player trying to turn the DP, not the bag. Incidental contact is where the runner slides into the base using a 'normal' feet first slide and then contacts the fielder within the confines of the rule. In my opinion, there is no place for a 'take out' slide in FED, at any base, in any situation.