Holiday Slide - Legal or Not?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by M Anthony

"Illegal slide (rule 2-32) Interpretation is that the runner must be able to reach the base with a hand or foot or it is interference. Can't roll block or throw cross body block "

Just for my benefit, what are you quoting here?

Looked like a slide to me. He landed on his hip and stayed down through contact. A roll block or body block usually entails a runner staying high and/or rolling over so that he's basically hitting the fielder with his shoulders or back.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by [B

M Anthony][/B]"Illegal slide (rule 2-32) Interpretation is that the runner must be able to reach the base with a hand or foot or it is interference. Can't roll block or throw cross body block "

Originally Posted by Manny A

Just for my benefit, what are you quoting here?

Looked like a slide to me. He landed on his hip and stayed down through contact. A roll block or body block usually entails a runner staying high and/or rolling over so that he's basically hitting the fielder with his shoulders or back.

That is a FED rule quote

[dash_riprock]

It's not FED. It's from the MLBUM.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

It's not FED. It's from the MLBUM.

That's what I thought, but I don't have my MLBUM handy.

I still don't see a rolling block. Look at the super slo-mo replay starting at 0:36 of the video. He hits Scoot with his chest while keeping his hip down on the ground.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That's what I thought, but I don't have my MLBUM handy.

I still don't see a rolling block. Look at the super slo-mo replay starting at 0:36 of the video. He hits Scoot with his chest while keeping his hip down on the ground.

Here are the Guidelines under 6.3 Willful And Deliberate Interference:

In sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot.

A runner who, in the judgment of the umpire, contacts or attempts to make contact with a fielder with a slide or roll block that is not a bona fide effort to reach and stay on the base may be called out for interference and, when appropriate, a double play may be called.

Any definite change in direction by the runner to contact the fielder would be considered interference.

If a runner hits the dirt, slides and rolls, it does not constitute a rolling block unless the runner leaves his feet and makes contact with the fielder before the runner slides on the ground. If the initial contact is with the fielder instead of the ground for the purpose of breaking up a double play, it is a roll block.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

NOT a violation in NCAA. In NCAA you can go straight through the base. There's a diagram illustrating it.

Wrong. It is a violation in NCAA baseball.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, you can go through the base. But, you need to have a legal slide to do so. This wasn't (at that level).

Yep.

Originally Posted by Rich

Oh, there's a violation here. The path is the width of the base only and the contact is slightly to the left of the baseline -- with the contact occurring behind the base in this manner, I'm not giving the runner an inch of leeway. I'd call this in a heartbeat and feel quite good about it.

Yep. The NCAA put a video bulletin out this year that emphasizes that the runner's legs and torso have to go straight into the base. This is a blatant FPSR violation at the FED and NCAA level.

[rpumpire]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

At Babe Ruth and FED games, I'm calling an illegal slide. At MLB level, the pitcher drills him in the ribs the next day and we play on.

Technically, this would be legal at Babe Ruth. There is only a collision/malicious contact rule on plays at home plate.

Although at the BR level, I would use rule 9 to get an unsportsmanlike ejection.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Wrong. It is a violation in NCAA baseball.



Yep.



Yep. The NCAA put a video bulletin out this year that emphasizes that the runner's legs and torso have to go straight into the base. This is a blatant FPSR violation at the FED and NCAA level.

I'll admit -- my original post was lacking in the details I wanted to put in there and was wrong at face value. That said, the play was clearly an NCAA FPSR violation.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I, for one, wish MLB would adopt OBR rules. No, really - actually adopt them and not allow these kinds of collisions (both on DP's and on plate plays).

Mike, I can see where full-up adoption of 7.09e would penalize this play on a DP. But what rule in OBR, if adopted as you lament, would prohibit a scoring runner from crashing into the catcher?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

It's not FED. It's from the MLBUM.

You are correct, I saw the dash (excuse the pun) and thought FED.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by M Anthony

It was an illegal side.
"Illegal slide (rule 2-32) Interpretation is that the runner must be able to reach the base with a hand or foot or it is interference. Can't roll block or throw cross body block "
View the slow-mo here
2012 MLB Postseason | NLCS Game 2: Cardinals on Holliday's slide - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia
An obvious body block.
The base runner should have been ejected.

This play contained neither a roll block or cross body block.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by rpumpire

Technically, this would be legal at Babe Ruth. There is only a collision/malicious contact rule on plays at home plate.

Although at the BR level, I would use rule 9 to get an unsportsmanlike ejection.

So your saying the rules allow them to play however, your going to find a way to interject yourself into the game, contrary to the rules. What other rules do you think BR would like you to interpret for them.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

MLB.com Must C | Must C Collision: Holliday slides into Scutaro - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia
What say you? I am a Giants fan, so I will provide my biased, emotional opinion. Illegal slide, I have 2 outs.

This video angers me. There was nothing about that slide that was an attempt to get to the base. The defensive player was beyond the bag and the "slide" was not for any reason but to try to break up a double play.

I realize the pros do things differently but making a lot of money shouldn't excuse unnecessary violent collisions.

In the games I do, there would be two outs and an ejection.

Rita

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rita C

There was nothing about that slide that was an attempt to get to the base. The defensive player was beyond the bag and the "slide" was not for any reason but to try to break up a double play.

And, as you know Rita, there is nothing illegal about that in straight-up OBR.

Two things to look for:
1. Could Holliday reach the bag? Yes he could. In fact, he hit the top of the base with his leg.
2. Was there a cross body block or rolling block? Most agree here that there wasn't.

If Holliday had executed the exact same slide with Scutaro on either side of the bag, and Holliday could reach the bag with his hand, nobody would say a peep. The same is true had Scutaro been in front (first base side) of the base. So why should it be any different on the back side of the base?

The only anomaly, if you will, is that Holliday started his slide on top of the bag, not in front or to the side. But nothing in OBR makes that illegal. Heck, he could've started a slide after he passed over the bag, and as long as he could reach back and touch the bag with his hand while sliding, he meets the rule requirement.

Yeah, there's no doubt what he was intending on doing. And if Scutaro had leaped over Holliday, or even gotten up right away after the contact, there would have been no outcries. But because Scutaro got hurt, people want to scream "ILLEGAL!" especially Giants fans who still have the Posey incident fresh in their memories.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rita C

This video angers me.

Why? Why would you, the umpire, allow yourself to be angry at all?

I work small college and HS varsity and an ejection would never even cross my mind. His intent isn't to injure -- it's to break up the double play. It's a FPSR violation and I'm getting 2 outs, but it's nothing more in my mind.