Hand to mouth, FED

[umpjim]

"I bring this up because this was apparently miscalled in a Senior Little League World Series game. Little League uses OBR so the infraction should have been penalized by a ball to the batter. Unfortunately, the umpires ruled by "high school rules"."

LL allows protests so was there one if the umps ruled it a 8.02(a)(1) violation which is always a ball penalty.
If the umps ruled it an 8.02(a)(2 thru 6) violation with runners on it would be a balk. You would know if they called that one because the pitcher would be ejected.

Shame if they were using FED at that level. If so the current case play calls it a balk if F1 was on the rubber with runners on. That case play is at odds with another one that allows hat adjustment and other moves prior to coming set.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Shame if they were using FED at that level.

My guess is that the umpires in this game do a lot of FED ball, and just confused the rule. Although I'm surprised that all four of them brain-farted on it, since the PU who made the initial balk call conferenced with his partners after the manager complained.

As far as I know, the manager did not formally protest.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by umpjim

"I bring this up because this was apparently miscalled in a Senior Little League World Series game. Little League uses OBR so the infraction should have been penalized by a ball to the batter. Unfortunately, the umpires ruled by "high school rules"."

LL allows protests so was there one if the umps ruled it a 8.02(a)(1) violation which is always a ball penalty.
If the umps ruled it an 8.02(a)(2 thru 6) violation with runners on it would be a balk. You would know if they called that one because the pitcher would be ejected.

Shame if they were using FED at that level. If so the current case play calls it a balk if F1 was on the rubber with runners on. That case play is at odds with another one that allows hat adjustment and other moves prior to coming set.

I'm a little confused with your answer. It is never a balk in OBR (LL included) baseball.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Rita C

I'm a little confused with your answer. It is never a balk in OBR (LL included) baseball.

If you read the cites I agree going to your mouth is never a balk in OBR and shouldn't be in FED but unfortunately due to the casebook and some approved rulings in FED it is if you have a runner and the pitcher is on the rubber.
I was trying to give the involved umps a way out with the 8.02(a)(2 thru 6)rule which does allow a balk but also requires an ejection. I don't think that is what happened here but who knows.
If they were using FED rules here they were remiss. Even in our District umpire briefs we cover those specific differences (We do mostly HS). We even cover the LGB failure to update to the OBR rule concerning going to the mouth on the dirt. We call it like OBR and tell them that if they go furthor it might be called one way or the other. Find out how they will call it. Since MLB changed the rule to avoid the waste of time that the pitcher would spend walking down to the grass I don't think anybody would mind if it was called that way even if LL did not pick up on the change.
But apparantely, at the LL SBBWS, the umps did not only know the difference between the LGB and OBR, they did not know that FED was different from both.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by umpjim

If you read the cites I agree going to your mouth is never a balk in OBR and shouldn't be in FED but unfortunately due to the casebook and some approved rulings in FED it is if you have a runner and the pitcher is on the rubber.
I was trying to give the involved umps a way out with the 8.02(a)(2 thru 6)rule which does allow a balk but also requires an ejection. I don't think that is what happened here but who knows.

Excuse me but you did it again. At one point you say it is never a balk, and then you say rule 8.02(a) allows it.

Please show me what part EVER says that a balk is allowed. I don't see it.

All I see is a ball being called and an ejection if the pitcher persists.

Rita

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Excuse me but you did it again. At one point you say it is never a balk, and then you say rule 8.02(a) allows it.

Please show me what part EVER says that a balk is allowed. I don't see it.

All I see is a ball being called and an ejection if the pitcher persists.

Rita

8.02(a)(1), going to your mouth improperly, is never a balk in OBR.
8.02(a)(2), expectorating on the ball, hand or glove, is a balk with runners on. Edited to add: The balk penalty is in the Penalty paragraph (d) further on in the chapter. Edited to add further: I see the problem. The LGB does not read the same way. My penalty is from the MLB OBR.

Regarding FED the quoted case play makes it a balk because it is the start of coming set and is stopped. I'm not happy that that is the way they want it called. They have another case play that allows hat adjustment and other arm motions without it being a balk. That case play actually called those things a balk several years ago. Then one year it was quietly reversed to no balk. I hope they do the same thing with the hand to mouth case play.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by umpjim

8.02(a)(1), going to your mouth improperly, is never a balk in OBR.
8.02(a)(2), expectorating on the ball, hand or glove, is a balk with runners on. Edited to add: The balk penalty is in the Penalty paragraph (d) further on in the chapter. Edited to add further: I see the problem. The LGB does not read the same way. My penalty is from the MLB OBR.

Interesting. I looked it up in my 2011 MLB OBR pdf and there it is:

PENALTY: For violation of any part of Rules 8.02 (a)(2) through (6):
(a) The pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be
suspended automatically. In National Association Leagues, the
automatic suspension shall be for 10 games.
(b) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the
team at bat may advise the umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the
play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play.
However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls,
a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before
advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to
the violation.
(c) Even though the team at bat elects to take the play, the violation shall be recognized and the penalties in subsection (a) will still be in effect.
(d) If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to accept the play, the
umpire-in-chief shall call an automatic ball and, if there are any runners
on base, a balk.

However, this is new! I have the 2001 copy, which is what I first read, four times through, before I became an umpire. It says:

PENALTY: For violation of any part of this rule 8.02 (a) (2 to 6) the umpire shall:
(a) Call the pitch a ball, warn the pitcher and have announced on the public address system the reason for the action.
(b) In the case of a second offense by the same pitcher in the same game, the pitcher shall be disqualified from the game.

(c) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire that he elects to accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation.
(d) Even though the offense elects to take the play, the violation shall be recognized and the penalties in (a) and (b) will still be in effect.

So MLB changed. And this is one change Little League hasn't yet chosen to follow.

It is also interesting that it is a balk only IF THERE IS A PLAY and the manager declines to accept the play.

Thank you for helping clear that up.

Rita

[Steven Tyler]

Little League does not call balks, so that is the biggest difference.