The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 02:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Germantown, TN (east of Memphis)
Posts: 783
Brain Teaser

A friend forwarded this to me as a baseball rules brain teaser. Rule on the play as if it had occurred in an MLB game.

Obviously, this is purely an academic question but it's kind of fun to unravel.

I have worked my way through this play and arrived at a ruling that I think is correct, but I would be interested in some of your solutions.

* * *


Situation: Runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs. New batter who is right-handed.

Play: As the pitcher begins his wind-up, both runners takeoff running. The suicide squeeze is on! Startled, the pitcher hesitates during his wind-up. The umpire points at him and says, "That's a balk!" but the pitcher delivers the ball anyway. The batter squares around to bunt. The catcher, in his eagerness to tag out the runner advancing toward home, moves forward, out of his crouch, and makes contact with the batter. Nonetheless, the batter manages to bunt the ball on the ground only about 8-feet out in front of the plate. As the catcher attempts to pursue the batted ball he gets tangled up with the batter who, simulataneously, is trying to advance toward 1st. The catcher is trying to get the ball and the batter is trying to get to 1st. The contact occurs in the area immediately out in front of the plate. The catcher manages to pick up the ball but there is no hope in tagging out the scoring runner. He attempts to the throw the batter out at 1st but his throw hits the batter-runner in the helmet while he has one foot in and one foot out of the running lane. Everybody is safe. One run has scored. The runner who was originally on 2nd ends up on 3rd.

YOU MAKE THE CALL!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 02:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 425
Balk, CI and Running Lane INT.

The order in which these infractions occured has no bearing on how to apply the penalties.

By virtue of batter out due to RLI, enforce CI. Since runners were stealing, they are awarded those bases they were attempting to steal. BR 1st, R2 3rd, R3 home. Since all runners, including the BR, advanced one base, the balk is disregarded. OM has option of penalty or play. If OM chooses penalty, the above is enforced. If OM wants play, BR would have been out for RLI absent the balk. Since a balk was called, and all runners including the BR did not advance one base, you ignore the RLI and enforce the balk. R3 home, R2 3rd. Batter returns to bat with pitch nullified.

At all levels of amatuer ball, I will be explaining both options to OM and let him choose prior to making any awards.

At the pro level, I am making the CI award at the end of play and letting OM ask about the options. In fact, I'm sure both skippers will be out for an explanation anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 02:57pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Emerling View Post
The catcher, in his eagerness to tag out the runner advancing toward home, moves forward, out of his crouch, and makes contact with the batter.
TIME!

Rule 7.07 states that when a catcher interferes with a batter during a squeeze attempt, play is killed immediately. So all that stuff that happened afterwards in your play is moot. The penalty is a balk on the pitcher and the batter gets first base. Since everybody is advanced one base, the first balk is ignored.

So the ruling is the same as the play ended up. R3 scores, R2 gets third, and the batter gets first.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 02:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 2,439
I believe that as soon as F2 committed CI, TIME should be called and the balk enforced. CI never happened nor did anything else. Award R3 home and R2 3rd, batter stays in the box to hit again.

Of course, in FED, TIME would be called on the balk so nothing else happened.
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!
Ozzy
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 03:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
TIME!

Rule 7.07 states that when a catcher interferes with a batter during a squeeze attempt, play is killed immediately. So all that stuff that happened afterwards in your play is moot. The penalty is a balk on the pitcher and the batter gets first base. Since everybody is advanced one base, the first balk is ignored.

So the ruling is the same as the play ended up. R3 scores, R2 gets third, and the batter gets first.
Absolutely correct! Brain freeze. Very nice.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 04:51pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Germantown, TN (east of Memphis)
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
TIME!

Rule 7.07 states that when a catcher interferes with a batter during a squeeze attempt, play is killed immediately. So all that stuff that happened afterwards in your play is moot. The penalty is a balk on the pitcher and the batter gets first base. Since everybody is advanced one base, the first balk is ignored.

So the ruling is the same as the play ended up. R3 scores, R2 gets third, and the batter gets first.
I was also thinking that 7.07 covers everything, too. That is a very specific rule with a dual penalty; a balk and catcher's interference. But I was thinking - what if, instead of bunting the ball in front of the plate, the batter had hit a homerun?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 06:14pm
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,983
I'm trying to figure out how you'd have a balk by the F1 during his windup that didn't result in the play being killed. If he stops his motion during the windup, the ball would be dead from the balk, would it not?
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 08:13pm
JJ JJ is offline
Veteran College Umpire
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: IN
Posts: 1,122
It's a do-over.

JJ
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 08:42pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Seems to me 7.07 covers it. Score R3, R2 to 3b, BR to 1b.

Batter hitting a HR in a squeeze play situation is a 3rd world play and umpires might use 9.01c to permit the HR to stand. Just sayin..
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 09:02pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,073
This is why NFHS Rules make this play easy. The ball becomes immediately when the Pitcheer balked. Only one thing for the umpires to do but enforce the balk.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 13, 2012, 11:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
I'm trying to figure out how you'd have a balk by the F1 during his windup that didn't result in the play being killed. If he stops his motion during the windup, the ball would be dead from the balk, would it not?
Not in OBR. Only immediately dead in FED.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 14, 2012, 07:29am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
Batter hitting a HR in a squeeze play situation is a 3rd world play and umpires might use 9.01c to permit the HR to stand. Just sayin..
7.07 isn't only about squeeze plays. It also calls for an immediate dead ball if R3 is attempting a straight steal of home. So the HR would not be allowed to stand.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 14, 2012, 07:32am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
I'm trying to figure out how you'd have a balk by the F1 during his windup that didn't result in the play being killed. If he stops his motion during the windup, the ball would be dead from the balk, would it not?
If F1 came to a complete stop and never delivered the pitch, you might be able to kill play right after that. But in this scenario, he only hesitated and then restarted his motion to pitch. You really can't kill it until all play ends.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 14, 2012, 08:35am
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,983
Rich, I'm not talking about the Fed rule. I'm fully aware of what the OBR rule is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
If F1 came to a complete stop and never delivered the pitch, you might be able to kill play right after that. But in this scenario, he only hesitated and then restarted his motion to pitch. You really can't kill it until all play ends.
I still can't envision a balk where the pitcher, pitching from the windup hesitates but doesn't stop. Mechanically it doesn't seem possible.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 14, 2012, 12:47pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
I still can't envision a balk where the pitcher, pitching from the windup hesitates but doesn't stop. Mechanically it doesn't seem possible.
You obviously haven't umpired a LL game in a while, if at all, huh?
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brain teaser MD Longhorn Football 154 Wed Aug 18, 2010 09:55am
just a brain teaser cmathews Football 6 Tue Sep 16, 2008 05:53am
brain teaser Andy Softball 14 Sun Oct 21, 2007 07:26pm
Slightly OT: Brain Teaser rotationslim Basketball 9 Mon Apr 24, 2006 06:59am
Brain teaser. Mike Simonds Football 4 Tue Jul 22, 2003 01:34pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:20am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1