Running Lane - Whose Call?

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...And it should not surprise you that people that have been doing something for a long time and been through the fires do not go around changing their positions because someone has a different idea...

I have not said you should change your opinion. Not all conversation is about changing opinions of the other person. Sometimes its about finding out my own opinion. Sometimes its about finding out whether my opinion holds water. I just made a mistake in how you were engaging me. That's my fault, that i received a noisy signal.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My opinions are not just based on some opinion; I have done this quite a lot and done it at a high level with many other high level people.

I never assumed otherwise. Why have you assumed otherwise of me and my experience? You have repeatedly hinted that I must not have the experience that you have or do not work at the high levels you work at. I think ideas are interesting for understanding regardless of whom they are attached to. I haven't read you my resume as you have yours to me. If you are interested send me a pm and I will read it for you.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And long before you were here and long before you knew this place existed

Um...I have been a member since January 2001 and you since June of 2000. Hardly a difference I would contend.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It would be better if your position was 100% supported by mechanic, but it is not.

Whatever my opinion or your opinion on this we are both in the same boat here. Neither position can be 100% supported by mechanic. In fact, no mechanics standard or non-standard can be 100% supported by mechanic.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not all conversations are had to change an opinion...If you think this place is a constant conversation to convince people they are right, then you are at the wrong place

I suggest a third alternative, seeking the truth or something approximating it. Argument need not be about wining and losing, that's just a pissing contest and what's right takes a back seat. Think competitive debate. A good debater could take the side the earth is flat and win a debate according to the rules of engagement.

It need not be a series of opinions that's what op ed pages are for.

It instead may about truth seeking. Think scientific method and experimentation. Its about figuring out what works or doesn't work. That's where I come from.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

I have not said you should change your opinion. Not all conversation is about changing opinions of the other person. Sometimes its about finding out my own opinion. Sometimes its about finding out whether my opinion holds water. I just made a mistake in how you were engaging me. That's my fault, that i received a noisy signal.

Why would your opinion hold water to me? You stated that your concern was to have opposing calls and one of those calls is something I would not be advocating on any level. I have never been an advocate for giving a safe signal until someone is actually safe. So it is not going to hold water if the only reason we should have the PU make this call is the fact that we will have opposing signals.

Originally Posted by tcarilli

I never assumed otherwise. Why have you assumed otherwise of me and my experience? You have repeatedly hinted that I must not have the experience that you have or do not work at the high levels you work at. I think ideas are interesting for understanding regardless of whom they are attached to. I haven't read you my resume as you have yours to me. If you are interested send me a pm and I will read it for you.

I have not hinted towards anything but you have not been here, at this particular place. I have no idea what your actual experience is or honestly care. I did not even talk about my experience until others felt it necessary to give how long they have been doing this too. And our experience is what shapes us and is not going to change just because someone references how long they have been doing something. It seems to me you are sensitive to what your position is and no I will not PM you because your experience is honestly irrelevant to this discussion. It is relevant to why I might do something personally, but not why others choose a different route. You know how many guys I have worked less years than and achieved more than they have? Or better yet, do you know how many umpires that do things and this has been their main goal and I do this passively and they still have not gotten to places I have? I am sure your experience has shaped your position and that is why I said, do what works for you.

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Um...I have been a member since January 2001 and you since June of 2000. Hardly a difference I would contend.

This site has been around longer than 2000 and you might not be aware that a software issue made everyone registered as a member. For example I have been talking to Carl Childress and many others way before 2000. And if you have been around that long or seen this board, you know my positions on these things. I honestly have never read or remembered much of your contribution to this site until now.

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Whatever my opinion or your opinion on this we are both in the same boat here. Neither position can be 100% supported by mechanic. In fact, no mechanics standard or non-standard can be 100% supported by mechanic.

I would contend that my position is much more supported by mechanic because it does not say that the PU has this call always and never should the BU under any circumstances make this call. And you are right, but that does not mean that similar experienced officials do not disagree either. Remember we are a very small community that is talking about this topic, there are umpires all over the country that do a lot of things based on their teaches, trainings or experience. That is why I find it funny that people want to only look at mechanics but most of the things we talk about are philosophies. Remember I referenced the 3 legged stool which is not a unique concept.

Originally Posted by tcarilli

I suggest a third alternative, seeking the truth or something approximating it. Argument need not be about wining and losing, that's just a pissing contest and what's right takes a back seat. Think competitive debate. A good debater could take the side the earth is flat and win a debate according to the rules of engagement.

It need not be a series of opinions that's what op ed pages are for.

It instead may about truth seeking. Think scientific method and experimentation. Its about figuring out what works or doesn't work. That's where I come from.

If Christians cannot agree on what is the best way to believe in Jesus or His works, what makes you think that in these situations where people come from totally different experiences are going to always agree? Now I am just using the religious example as just an example. But if I can tolerate that those differences exist as it relates to my faith and faith or lack thereof some sort of faith are much more life changing situations than who makes a call in a baseball game, I think I can be OK that you disagree with me. Again, nothing we say here is going to change why or when I work a baseball game. That is why I use the word perspective in these discussions. I think some thing they are not going to win if someone disagrees with them on what is honestly a minor issue in umpiring.

Peace

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have not hinted towards anything but you have not been here, at this particular place.

You must think some things are generalizable beyond your particular time and space. This may not be one of them, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have no idea what your actual experience is or honestly care. I did not even talk about my experience until others felt it necessary to give how long they have been doing this too.

I don't think this is true. You did it in your conversation with me repeatedly. I have not yet mentioned mine or found it relevant. Though you have stated and use yours as a reason for your opinion. Of course experience helps form opinion otherwise it means nothing. We all know of the guy who has had one year of experience x number of times.

So why continue you to tell me about your high level of experience and years of work?

I am receiving this signal whether you intend to send it or not:

"Listen kid, I have been doing baseball, football, and basketball at very high levels for many, many years. I am not interested in your opinion on this because I don't perceive that you have as many years experience as I do at the high levels that I do and therefore have nothing to offer."

Here is an example of why I am receiving that signal:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Or better yet, do you know how many umpires that do things and this has been their main goal and I do this passively and they still have not gotten to places I have?

and another

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I honestly have never read or remembered much of your contribution to this site until now.

and another

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...you have not been here, at this particular place.

You must think some things are generalizable beyond your particular time and space. This may not be one of them.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...what makes you think that in these situations where people come from totally different experiences are going to always agree?

I'm pretty sure I never required that you agree with me about this or had the expectation that all involved would agree..

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think some thing they are not going to win if someone disagrees with them on what is honestly a minor issue in umpiring.

I said many times in this thread that I was not interested in winning. I am interested in moving knowledge forward at least for me. I have learned much from this thread.

[JRutledge]

tcarilli,

Why are we even having this conversation? Did I change your mind?

I don't know who you are. I honestly do not care who you are and that is if I ever go back to baseball in any serious way I you are not likely going to be there either.

It is really time to move on. I still think the BU can make a interference call in a rare situation and certainly if the PU is watching other things. And I really believe this if there are more umpires on the field. Now what do you want to talk about?

Peace

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

tcarilli,

Why are we even having this conversation? Did I change your mind?

I don't know who you are. I honestly do not care who you are and that is if I ever go back to baseball in any serious way I you are not likely going to be there either.

It is really time to move on. I still think the BU can make a interference call in a rare situation and certainly if the PU is watching other things. And I really believe this if there are more umpires on the field. Now what do you want to talk about?

Peace

You made me think and engage an idea. I'm sorry the only way you find this type of activity worth while is to win, ie, change my mind. I find thinking and seriously engaging ideas to be worthy endeavors.

In the end it appears to me that what you want to do is pontificate. I understand and respect that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tcarilli

You made me think and engage an idea. I'm sorry the only way you find this type of activity worth while is to win, ie, change my mind. I find thinking and seriously engaging ideas to be worthy endeavors.

In the end it appears to me that what you want to do is pontificate. I understand and respect that.

Again, why are we continuing this conversation again?

Are you not secure in your own experience and training to do what you feel is right? That is all that should really matter to you. But instead you are worried about what I have to say (a guy you will never work with).

Peace

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again, why are we continuing this conversation again?

Are you not secure in your own experience and training to do what you feel is right? That is all that should really matter to you. But instead you are worried about what I have to say (a guy you will never work with).

Peace

This is a provincial way to move through life, to start with the premise that if I haven't worked with someone, he or his thoughts are unimportant prima facie. By implication, when I go to clinics taught by individuals with whom I have never worked or will never work, I shouldn't listen to them. That would make it very difficult for someone new to officiating to learn much wouldn't it?


Could the same question be asked of you?