Running Lane?

[DG]

I was a spectator for this one tonight, and sitting almost on the 1B line extended. R3 and R1, 2 out. Batter bunts up the first base line about 1 foot fair, right handed 1B comes in to field the ball, does so about 30 feet from the bag and swipes at the runner to attempt a tag. Runner was running in the center of the running lane, or maybe even slightly to the right side of the lane, and turned his body as the 1B swipes at him and clearly stepped out of the lane, but not far out. BU points to PU, who makes a safe call as 1B clearly missed the tag. After a lengthy discussion (calm one) with the defensive coach, the BU goes to the parking lot and comes back with a rulebook. Apparently defensive coach is appealing the decision based on a rule. After reviewing the book the umpires got both coaches to a meeting and ruling was made. Delay took about 10 minutes to resolve and it was all very calmly done. I know what I am thinking the whole time, but curious what the forum has to say. I know both the umpires, they are in my association, so I can't wait to discuss it with them.

This was a conference tournament semi-final, and the score was 0-0 at the time, and in the bottom of the 4th. I will tell what was ruled when I hear what the possibilities could have been, and in particular since the rulebook was consulted.

[Edited by DG on May 12th, 2005 at 12:34 AM]

[Macaroo]

R1 and R3, I stand in B, but that's neither here nor there.
First mistake was getting a rule book. Second was having a ten minute delay. I suspect that the discussion was defense claiming that BR avoided the tag by running more than three feet out of his baseline. If this was the case, PU should have nailed it right away (when BU asked for his help). The runner is allowed to step out of the running lane as long as he doesn't interfere with a throw to 1B, which isn't the case here. So, the only question is, was his "dodge" greater than three feet away from his line? I doubt it was, but I would have to actually see the play to know.

Two possible anwers here: "Sorry coach, runner stepped away, but within three feet, he's safe. Or, "Oh yeah, I guess he DID run more than three feet out of the baseline (ten minutes ago), and it says right here in the rule book we have to call him out. Thanks for the input coach." Sorry about the sarcasm, but this is a judgment call that should be ruled on right away, not a clinic topic during a game.

[mbyron]

The running lane is a red herring: being outside the lane is relevant only to calling interference on BR under 7.09(k).

The call should be based on the runner establishing a base path, and determining whether he deviated from that path by more than 3 feet as the tag was attempted (7.08(a1)).

You said that he was on the right side of the running lane and took a step outside. That sounds like less than 3 feet, but that's the ruling that PU needed to make immediately.

Edit: Macaroo got it.

[GarthB]

After a lengthy discussion (calm one) with the defensive coach, the BU goes to the parking lot and comes back with a rulebook.

Are you kidding me? My God, Tee, you're right. This is becoming a game only slightly recognizable as baseball.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by DG

I stand in B also in this situation, although FED mechanic says C. But you are right, that is neither here nor there for this discussion.

What's your point? There is no reference as to where the BU was. The story teller said that as a "spectator" he was on 1st baseline extended, not the umpire.

[UmpJM]

DG,

I'll play.

From your description, the only thing that I can conceive of that the manager might have legitimately appealed was whether or not the BR should have properly been ruled out for running more than 3 ft. from his baseline in avoiding the tag attempt by F3. As described, there is no possibility of a "running lane violation", and it also doesn't sound like there's any possibility of obstruction or interference or a question of whether the batted ball was properly ruled fair or foul.

I would also assume that the R3 scored on the play so there is the question of run nullification if the BR gets called "out" on the play. If he is called out (whether for leaving his baseline to avoid a tag or some other reason I haven't thought of), the R3's run does not count.

Now I didn't see the play, so I certainly can't comment definitively on whether or not the runner should have been called out for leaving his baseline to avoid a tag (if that was the subject of the discussion), but, based on your description, I would be inclined to lean towards a "safe" call. Had I actually seen the play, I might very well be inclined to rule "out" depending on what I saw.

But, I don't think I've ever seen an F3 whose left arm is 3 ft. long (or longer), so I don't think the BR had to go beyond his 3 ft. limit in order to successfully avoid the tag.

The thing that's puzzling to me is why the umpire felt a need to get his rulebook and why the discussion lasted for ten minutes.

Of course, us coaches can get pretty darn "creative" when the game is close and there's a "close call" in an "important" game, so maybe the defensive coach was a little more "creative" than I'm being right now.

It does sound like everbody's behavior was "exemplary".

I hope you'll share the details and outcome (as well as your opinion of same) after everyone's has a suitable opportunity to respond.

JM

[DG]

Originally posted by GarthB

What's your point? There is no reference as to where the BU was. The story teller said that as a "spectator" he was on 1st baseline extended, not the umpire.

I deleted my post that is quoted herein, because it has nothing to do with this situation, but apparently you responded moments before I deleted. I also stand in B with 1st and 3rd situation although FED mechanic says stand in C. CCA and PBUC mechanics say stand in B and I feel more comfortable there, especially if runner is not being held at 3B and is being held at 1B.

Contrary to popular belief, I see no way the BU could have gotten into position to make this call. The swipe tag was missed by maybe 6 inches, and again I am sitting on 1B line extended and in the front row of the bleachers, maybe 40 feet from the PU, so I got a real good look at the swipe.

[Edited by DG on May 12th, 2005 at 01:41 AM]

[jicecone]

This seems to be the second thread, (see Interesting Observation) about playoff officials that DON'T belong in playoff games.

Is kissing up to the Coaches/Assignor truly the main requirement to get these games. I would have thought that rules knowledge would have been just a little important in choosing the officials. But mabey, (in fact I know dam well), I'm just wrong.

[Tim C]

"I would have thought that rules knowledge would have been just a little important in choosing the officials."

-------

It is my opinion that an assignor for Federation Playoffs should:

If it is a three man crew (which all of our playoff crews are) I would assign my very best two umpires to the crew. I would then assign my highest ranked umpire that I consider a "great Federation rules guy" to the third crew position.

I would instruct the crew that under no circumstance are they to produce a rule book during any conversation.

I would also tell them to meet as necessary to determine rules issues and LISTEN to the rules guy.

In Oregon we do not allow protests. Getting a rule correct is critical to a games process. There always need to be a "rules guy" on every playoff crew.

If it were a game with a two man crew I would even go as far as to assign a "rules guy" as the second umpire EVEN if there were several umpires with more umpiring ability available.

In my area we see this example illustrated by the fact that many of the umpires in our Federation Association are also college umpires -- their rules knowledge is fine but they falter at the subtle changes that occur in Fedlandia.

[DG]

The ruling, after the delay on the field, was a running lane violation, runner stepping out of the running lane to avoid a swipe tag. The ruling had nothing to do with running more than 3 foot out of the baseline to avoid a tag.

I have my thoughts on this. Yours?

[UmpJM]

DG,

Apparently, the umpires in question did not read far enough in their rulebook to find the following:

"Rule 12.06(c)(2)

During the course of the game ONLY COACHES are allowed to make up rules which have no foundation in the text, official interpretations, or history of the rules. APPROVED RULING: While the umpire may, at his sole discretion, entertain discussion of such made up rules with the coach (strictly for the entertaiment value), there will be NO ENFORCEMENT of any such rules."

Since they are clearly in violation, I would have to PROTEST were I the offensive manager in this situation.

Also, if you can put me in touch with the Defensive Manager, I would greatly appreciate it. I would like him to be my "mentor" on the subject of "persuasive rhetoric with umpires".

JM

[Macaroo]

What's your point? There is no reference as to where the BU was. The story teller said that as a "spectator" he was on 1st baseline extended, not the umpire.

I have no idea why I thought the umpire was in C. Perhaps it was the adult beverage I was enjoying at the time. Sorry to deviate from the real question here. I still stick by my premise that in no way was it a running lane violation/interference.

I like Rule 12.06(c)(2)

[DG]

I spoke with the UIC on this play and after some discussion we agreed that the running lane has nothing to do with swipe tags, and the correct ruling was the first one, ie that he did not run more than 3 feet out of his base path to 1B to avoid the tag.

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by DG
The ruling, after the delay on the field, was a running lane violation, runner stepping out of the running lane to avoid a swipe tag. The ruling had nothing to do with running more than 3 foot out of the baseline to avoid a tag.

I have my thoughts on this. Yours?

They came up with this after checking a rule book? Wow! I have to agree with Tee on his selection process. That actually seems to be a very good way to get a solid crew. Seems to me, the members of this crew were neither top notch field/game management umpires nor rules guys. To make matters worse, their reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking as well. Wow! I know I am not even close to being ready for State Playoff games yet, but after reading this thread, maybe I ought to give myself a little more credit. Wow!

[TBBlue]

CoachJM,
I umpire only, but I would like to meet Defensive Coach as well and work a scrimmage or two for him just to get practice on how to handle a guy with "superior persuasive rhetoric to umpires" skills.