MLB: Beckham tag play on DeJesus

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The sad face was not attitude directed at you or your post. When the issue concerned how the runner came to be off his base, I didn't want to hear simply that he was tagged off base.

If you rule the contact incidental, then I'd agree that the out would stand. But in my judgment, the runner was moving TOWARD the base, and the force of the collision drove him AWAY from the base. That's not loss of balance.

Apparently we see different things in the video. Prior to contact, I see then runner foot make contact with the bag.

He is then knocked off with what instructors would call playing action, not an intentional shove or even an extra hard tag.

There may no be word for word description of this in the rules, but there is plenty of accepted precedence.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Apparently we see different things in the video. Prior to contact, I see then runner foot make contact with the bag.

He is then knocked off with what instructors would call playing action, not an intentional shove or even an extra hard tag.

A hard tag would no doubt be playing action. But this wasn't a hard tag - it was a cross-body block by the fielder 3 strides after he caught the thrown ball. The tag did not knock the runner off his base.

There may no be word for word description of this in the rules, but there is plenty of accepted precedence.

Other than the Hrbek play, not really.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

A hard tag would no doubt be playing action. But this wasn't a hard tag - it was a cross-body block by the fielder 3 strides after he caught the thrown ball. The tag did not knock the runner off his base.



Other than the Hrbek play, not really.

Depends on what you feel is relevant. There have been many, many outs called when a tag or bump results in a runner coming off the bag.


"Cross body block"? No. The fielder fell while making a normal baseball move. He did not throw a block. Runner is out at MLB level.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Depends on what you feel is relevant. There have been many, many outs called when a tag or bump results in a runner coming off the bag.


"Cross body block"? No. The fielder fell while making a normal baseball move. He did not throw a block. Runner is out at MLB level.

It doesn't matter that it was a normal baseball move... it matters that his body hit the runner, completely changed his direction and pushed him off the bag. This being called an out is a HORRIBLE precedent. (And no, this is nothing like the Hrbek play).

[JJ]

How can anyone - even the calling umpire - justify calling this runner out?
My, oh my!

JJ

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It doesn't matter that it was a normal baseball move... it matters that his body hit the runner, completely changed his direction and pushed him off the bag. This being called an out is a HORRIBLE precedent. (And no, this is nothing like the Hrbek play).

Yep. It amazes me that anyone would call this an out. I think it's one thing to have it happen quickly and make the call on the field. But, after really thinking about what happened, you are just asking for trouble if you call this an out.

[DLH17]

Three pages deep, and the best we can come up with is opinions - good ones at that - but opinions, just the same. No supporting rules or case studies. I guess the situation is one of those that is right in the middle of a gray area.

[rpumpire]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Three pages deep, and the best we can come up with is opinions - good ones at that - but opinions, just the same. No supporting rules or case studies. I guess the situation is one of those that is right in the middle of a gray area.

How about "Common Sense and Fair Play, 1.01?"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Three pages deep, and the best we can come up with is opinions - good ones at that - but opinions, just the same. No supporting rules or case studies. I guess the situation is one of those that is right in the middle of a gray area.

It has always struck me as odd that there's no rule that says you can't push a player off a base while in possession of the ball. There's interps. There's common sense, and there's unwritten understandings... but seems this should be in black and white.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Apparently we see different things in the video. Prior to contact, I see then runner foot make contact with the bag.

He is then knocked off with what instructors would call playing action, not an intentional shove or even an extra hard tag.

1) the tag itself did not knock DeJesus off the base. He had already gained a foothold on the base that withstood the initial tag.

2) the thing that knocked him off the bag was the body block that looked more at home in a hockey or football game than in the game of baseball. If the tag had knocked him off the base, I would agree with the out call. What's to stop all fielders from diving into runners after they're already called safe, just to get a cheap, undeserved out. This practice needs to be reevaluated, IMO.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

1) the tag itself did not knock DeJesus off the base. He had already gained a foothold on the base that withstood the initial tag.

2) the thing that knocked him off the bag was the body block that looked more at home in a hockey or football game than in the game of baseball. If the tag had knocked him off the base, I would agree with the out call. What's to stop all fielders from diving into runners after they're already called safe, just to get a cheap, undeserved out. This practice needs to be reevaluated, IMO.

The fielder tripped in the course of a normal baseball play. He didn't throw a block into the runner. Play on. Runner's out.

[DG]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

The fielder tripped in the course of a normal baseball play. He didn't throw a block into the runner. Play on. Runner's out.

I don't see a trip. I see a charge into the runner.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by DG

I don't see a trip. I see a charge into the runner.

While running to get into position to make the tag, the fielder, bent over, loses his balance and falls. (trips) The slow mo show this excellently.

If you want to see this as a deliberate dive into the runner, have it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

While running to get into position to make the tag, the fielder, bent over, loses his balance and falls. (trips) The slow mo show this excellently.

If you want to see this as a deliberate dive into the runner, have it.

Why should it have to be deliberate? Fielders can fake a trip (aka 'acting') and dive right into the runner then. Oops, I tripped, sorry! The only thing that should be able to cause an out in these situations is the tag, not subsequent action. Had the tag dislodged his leg off the bag, I'd be right there with you. But not the fielder losing his balance...that's on him, not the runner. The runner should not be punished for the fielder's clumsiness.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

If you want to see this as a deliberate dive into the runner, have it.

I don't think it's deliberate. But I don't think the runner would have come off the base without getting knocked off.

Given the call on the field, you're obviously correct that this is how MLB calls this play. And ordinarily, I favor the defense. But it seems manifestly unfair to make the runner pay for this collision.

On the other hand, how many times do we see an incidental collision (esp. at the plate) and the ball pops out, runner safe? So maybe we go with this. :shrug: