Odd play

[rbmartin]

I saw this happen yesterday in an NFHS Girls softball game (I was just a fan) but I don't think any rulings would be different than baseball so here it is. I am also 99% certain that one or both umpires kicked this royally.

Bases loaded. No outs. batter hits weakly down 3rd baseline on fair territory. F5 (playing kinda shallow) attempts to catch ball in air but clearly short-hops the ball. Field ump, who was positioned pretty deep for "C" position IMO, calls "OUT!" HP umpire shouts "no catch !" and points to the ground. R3 (view was shielded by F5) dives headfirst back onto 3rd. Pitcher throws back to F6 (who came over to cover 3rd) who was clearly standing on 3rd, who catches the ball and then tags R3, who was clearly already touching the bag.

Field ump was an seasoned umpire and plate ump has worked state finals games in the past.

Before I tell you what the ruling was, how would you guys sort this out?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

I saw this happen yesterday in an NFHS Girls softball game (I was just a fan) but I don't think any rulings would be different than baseball so here it is. I am also 99% certain that one or both umpires kicked this royally.

Bases loaded. No outs. batter hits weakly down 3rd baseline on fair territory. F5 (playing kinda shallow) attempts to catch ball in air but clearly short-hops the ball. Field ump, who was positioned pretty deep for "C" position IMO, calls "OUT!" HP umpire shouts "no catch !" and points to the ground. R3 (view was shielded by F5) dives headfirst back onto 3rd. Pitcher throws back to F6 (who came over to cover 3rd) who was clearly standing on 3rd, who catches the ball and then tags R3, who was clearly already touching the bag.

Field ump was an seasoned umpire and plate ump has worked state finals games in the past.

Before I tell you what the ruling was, how would you guys sort this out?

Step one - BU buys the beer, catch/no-catch is PU's call (both baseball and softball). Period.

Step 2... also on both sports, an erroneous call by an umpire MUST be corrected if possible, with the intent being - what would have happened had there never been a wrong call. In this case, I think your up a creek no matter what you rule. I'm a little confused as to how the ball got from the third baseman to the pitcher, but it sounds like you've got an out on R2 (force) and R3 safe returning to a now-unforced base. No run, 1 out. I suspect that is the safest "remedy" to the erroneous call - just leave it as played. The team that was disadvantaged by the call was most likely the offense, and they did not get any more outs than they would have had the play developed naturally.

Tough fix in any case - but I'm going with leaving the play alone and letting BU take whatever heat he deserves from the irate coach (maybe both!)

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Step one - BU buys the beer, catch/no-catch is PU's call (both baseball and softball). Period.

Step 2... also on both sports, an erroneous call by an umpire MUST be corrected if possible, with the intent being - what would have happened had there never been a wrong call. In this case, I think your up a creek no matter what you rule. I'm a little confused as to how the ball got from the third baseman to the pitcher, but it sounds like you've got an out on R2 (force) and R3 safe returning to a now-unforced base. No run, 1 out. I suspect that is the safest "remedy" to the erroneous call - just leave it as played. The team that was disadvantaged by the call was most likely the offense, and they did not get any more outs than they would have had the play developed naturally.

Tough fix in any case - but I'm going with leaving the play alone and letting BU take whatever heat he deserves from the irate coach (maybe both!)

Agree, and good fix. No catch, R2 forced out, R3 safe once R2 is out, everyone else moves up a base. 10-2-3l (that's a lower case L): The umpire-in-chief shall "Rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage."

[rbmartin]

I agree with both of you gentlemen. The fix you guys proposed is about the best you can do. BU takes the shame on this one.

Unfortunately, in this case, both runners were called out. The odd thing is, the defensive coach seemed really upset about something related to this play and at carried over to the bottom half of this inning where he was ejected for arguing a close call at first. Insisted on staying in the dugout. Eventually left after taking forever "gathering his stuff". Go figure.
Offensive coach was a gentleman all things considered.
I bit my tongue as I have learned to do as a fan.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Agree, and good fix. No catch, R2 forced out, R3 safe once R2 is out, everyone else moves up a base. 10-2-3l (that's a lower case L): The umpire-in-chief shall "Rectify any situation in which an umpire’s decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage."

I meant to add that if R3 had been tagged while off the base, I probably would have nullified that out and left him on 3B. I can't see allowing the defense to get 2 outs on this play, given BU's brain fart. His calling "catch" pretty clearly put the offense at a disadvantage, with R3 diving back to 3B instead of running home.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

I agree with both of you gentlemen. The fix you guys proposed is about the best you can do. BU takes the shame on this one.

Unfortunately, in this case, both runners were called out. The odd thing is, the defensive coach seemed really upset about something related to this play and at carried over to the bottom half of this inning where he was ejected for arguing a close call at first. Insisted on staying in the dugout. Eventually left after taking forever "gathering his stuff". Go figure.
Offensive coach was a gentleman all things considered.
I bit my tongue as I have learned to do as a fan.

I'd be very curious to learn why the runner from 3rd was called out. What was she out FOR?

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'd be very curious to learn why the runner from 3rd was called out. What was she out FOR?

I don't have a clue. I wasn't privy to the umpire conference. Head coach said the plate umpire "refused to explain it" (his words not mine). I know for certain F6 was on the base while recieving the throw and R3 was on the base when tagged afterward. I didn't discuss it with either umpire after the game.