Asking for help from feloow umpire

[sabattis]

In working a 2-man umpiring crew under major league rules, is there ever a situation when the Base Umpire, upon request by the offense, should ask for help from the Plate Umpire when the call was clearly a judgment call of the responsibility of the Base Umpire? If so, when? For example, the Base Umpire is in B position with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. The pitcher throws in an attempt to pick off the runner at 3rd. Obviously, the base umpire needs to make a call (say “out” in this case) – however, if the offense asks the base umpire for “help” (that is, ask the Plate Umpire if he saw anything different), should the Base Umpire ask the Plate Umpire for “help?”

[jicecone]

Two things first.

1. I can't imagine what the plate umpire would see differently.

2. I don't work the Big Show. At least that haven't called yet.

With those things in mind. I would say, "ABSOLUTELY NOT".

[GarthB]

The umpiring community is divided into three camps on this issue.

You will find one side feels that the admonition in the rule book to "get the call right" gives license to ask for help whenever you feel the need.

You will find another side that believes that there there are appropriate calls that can be appealed. (To them, this isn't one of them)

You will find a third group that feels that you make your call, you live or die with it. If you screwed it up, learn to do it better next time.

Then, of course you will find a number of hybrids who take a little from this, a little from that.

What you will not find is concensus.

[jicecone]

I agree, GB. I based my comment on the facts given, that implied (at least to me), a normal pickoff attempt at 3B. With nothing more than a catch and tag.

Other situations, could very well lead to asking for help. But once again, not having officiated at that level , I could be just wearing out my keyboard.

[David B]

Originally posted by GarthB
The umpiring community is divided into three camps on this issue.

I would agree with that Garth.

But, to answer the question, I know every umpire has personal preference, but in the play mentioned above, that's the BU's call and he needs to make the call.

I cannot think of anything that PU would be able to see that BU did not.

If I would have a BU ask for help, I would simply go out, listen to him, and then say, "its your call, you have to make it."

But simply to ask for help because the opposing coach or team asks for you to opens a door for all kind of problems later.

I agree there are times that we all might need to discuss a call, but this is not one of those times.

Thanks
David

[Bfair]

Originally posted by David B

I cannot think of anything that PU would be able to see that BU did not.

In the situation cited it's very possible for R3 to be diving back to 3B on the outside of the base where it would be clear to PU that he touched or did not touch a base, or whether a swipe tag to the outside touched the runner. That may not be evident to BU when starting in B position on a pickoff at 3B.

If there is doubt in the BU's mind after his call that he may have blown it (he wasn't sure about the original call that belonged to him and that he felt forced to make), I'd not have a problem checking with PU regarding added information. BU should not be checking about issues dealing with the timing of tag itself---only whether the tag actually touched the runner, etc.........

There are flaws in the two-man system, and frequently your partner has superior angles depending on how the play develops.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Jerry]

Steve,
Why don't you just ask the 3rd Base Coach? He was standing right there and had the best view of all of you!

The ONLY reason a coach would ask you to ask your partner, is if the coach disagreed with your call!

And then what do we have? We've got one "judge" saying "safe" and we've got another one saying "out". Logic tells me we now need a 3-umpire crew on some judgement calls . . . just to get it "right".

What's next? Instant replay?

Jerry

[jicecone]

Come on Jerry, We all know on those games being televised over REAL TV, the TV audience will be able to have instant voting for all plays. No Umpires and then all of the calls will be made perfect.

In fact even the coaches and players will get a chance to vote.

This will be called REAL BASEBALL and for $9.95/game you will be able to access this through you local cable TV that will pay Major League Baseball $100,000,000,000.00 for exclusive rights to this. And for an additional $100.00 you can be co-manager for the day. It will feature the ability to select the lineup and pitches. Im sure Gameboy and Sony and EAsports(just a few), will also contribute to this.

What a great idea! And I thought you had to make $25,000,000.00 a year with stock options to be able to think of something like this.

Also Players would be paid bonuses, per at bat or per pitch, with a sliding scale that depends upon the success of the at bat or pitch.Instant cash at the end of the inning.

PLAY BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jerry]

Jicecone:
We all "do the dance". You make a call, the coach questions the call, you ask your partner, you talk and argue a bit, we call go back to our spots, we talk about it again several plays later, the coaches question all of our calls from that point on, the game ends, we go home, we get paid . . . and we come back tomorrow to do it all again.

Gotta learn to dance.

Jerry

[St. Louis Blue]

I had this situation last night. R3 Pickoff attempt by F2. Throw is on the outside of the sliding runner. I call out. Base coach says the ball was loose. I didn't see it because I was screened by the runner. I asked PU if the ball was loose, he said yes. I rule Safe on the drop. According to the PU after the game, the ball dropped out onto the ground as the tag was made but didn't go anywhere. F5 re-acquired the ball immediately and came up with it to show me. My partner is very experienced and I have great faith in him. If he tells me the ball was loose, I believe him.

[jicecone]

"we get paid "

SHOW ME THE MONEY

[chris s]

Originally posted by GarthB
The umpiring community is divided into three camps on this issue.

You will find one side feels that the admonition in the rule book to "get the call right" gives license to ask for help whenever you feel the need.

You will find another side that believes that there there are appropriate calls that can be appealed. (To them, this isn't one of them)

You will find a third group that feels that you make your call, you live or die with it. If you screwed it up, learn to do it better next time.

Then, of course you will find a number of hybrids who take a little from this, a little from that.

What you will not find is concensus.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
Good points GB. Hers one I had to deal with...I as PU, 2 man, PONY Memorial day tourney(lotsa club teams). Bases loaded, Br lays one down, R3 is busting on the obvious "pitch". F1 fields bunt, F2 is square to third, I am FBL ext. Throw to F2 is on target(not much of throw), R3 slides into glove(w/ball) and spins F2 about 60 degrees clockwise. I am thinking out(mind you that F2 is now facing between 1st and second) Big dirt cloud.... F2 shows me ball in glove, I bang OUT. Crowd is screaming "drop", manager comes to me to ask for help..NO...BU wasn't even concerned with that play due to multiple runners.....found out later from a good friend working the score table, ball was knocked loose on the slide, picked up as if F2 had electro-magnet and metal ball. Runner was meat, F2 made a great play, I was screened, F2 sold the call....NO HELP..........

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by sabattis

n working a 2-man umpiring crew under major league rules, is there ever a situation when the Base Umpire, upon request by the offense, should ask for help from the Plate Umpire when the call was clearly a judgment call of the responsibility of the Base Umpire? If so, when? For example, the Base Umpire is in B position with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. The pitcher throws in an attempt to pick off the runner at 3rd. Obviously, the base umpire needs to make a call (say “out” in this case) – however, if the offense asks the base umpire for “help” (that is, ask the Plate Umpire if he saw anything different), should the Base Umpire ask the Plate Umpire for “help?”

A year or 2 ago Carl Childress (who doesn't post very much thse days) posted his infamous "FAB V" on which calls can be corrected and those that can't. I'm at work and don't have the list with me, but if you like send me a private E-mail and I will "resurrect" the list.

I found it Here's the list.

The FAB 5 (When calls may be legally changed)

1. Half swing called a ball changed to strike. (OBR 9.02c CMTs 1, 2, 3)

2. Two umpires make opposite calls on the same play. (common sense: only one can be accepted)

3. An umpire misapplies a rule. (9.02b/c)

4. Home run changed to double, vice versa; fair to foul, vice versa on balls hit out of the park. (professional practice)

5. "Out" called on a tag play, but the ball falls free, and another umpire observes it. (JEA 9:15-16)

The Terrible Three (Three times a call CANNOT be legally changed after it's made)

1. Swipe tag
2. Force play (or play on BR at first)
3. Fielder on/off the bag

As Garth mentioned, there is no Unamous concensus on this so my recommendation is:

Try all the methods and see for yourself. It's like trying to get a good plate stance. Experiment with them all and then decide which one works best for your.

In General, I do not think any one of us wants to get the call Wrong, however, there are times when we simply must "eat" the call and learn from it. Also, let's face it we are human and we will get some calls wrong.

From my experience, once you start changing calls or constantly looking for your partner to help you makes for a LOOOONG afternoon. Once a coach knows he has you rattled or unsure of yourself he / she will be all over you the ENTIRE game and on just about every close call he /she will want you to check with your partner.

Attend some mechanics training and learn to get into the best position possible which in a 2 Person system means sacrifice distance for angle.

Pete Booth

[Edited by PeteBooth on Jun 20th, 2003 at 02:08 PM]

[Jerry]

Pete,
Just to add to your excellent comments about receiving training and being in the right place at the right time:

We need to learn how to respond to coaches as well. Many times, a simple, "I had a great view, coach!" will suffice. (Even if you didn't have a great view.)

Another good one is, "I already know he (my partner)was looking at 3rd (or 1st or home or 2nd; doesn't matter); but I'll ask him anyhow." Then go pretend to talk it over and go with your original call anyhow. "Just like I thought, Coach. He had to look at 3rd (or 1st or home or 2nd). But he thinks I got it right also."

Amazing what a little BS can do.

Play ball! (The operative word here is "Play"!)

Jerry

[sabattis]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the insight! I have umpired a few years, and my tendency is always to ask for help ONLY WHEN the call WAS MY RESPONSIBILTY, but I am not sure that my call was as good as can be. If I am certain, as a BU, I will not ask and so state (to eliminate the observations of others re: coaches always asking, having you rattled, etc.).

I guess my real concern is when I did ask the PU for help(because I wasn't sure I had the best view), his verbal response for all to hear was "it's your call." I would have preferred, and expected, a "private" conference between he and I so that I could either affirm or change my call as appropriate. I didn't see his response as affirming my authority.