Honesty is the best policy?

[DrC.]

My 2 cents...

Get the Call right and call what you See, not what you expect or others tell you.

Bottom line, PAUSE... it sounds like you get too excited. You are not seing the whole play through and are calling it too soon. The younger the level, the more you have to wait. If you have a Close Play when a runner slides, Pause, Breathe, tell the fielder to show you the ball, then make the call (sell it if you have to). When you have the dish, Do you notice you call are calling balls and strikes before the catcher catches the ball. I have seen guys be on the back end of a ball call and then the batter swings. As you move up, pitchers have more movement. You need to see the whole pitch.

Again just my 2 cents. Good luck....

[Striker991]

Please note:

1. The level of play. Little League majors and below, regular season. Learning baseball.

2. We're not talking a close play here where the umpire was in position and making the call, or even a play at first being called from the C position. We are discussing a very obvious situation that an umpire missed entirely.

On my home field, with intra-league teams, Little League majors and below, in THIS situation (long ball over the fence), I am changing my call.

I still want to know where his partner was....

[Edited by Striker991 on May 16th, 2003 at 12:18 PM]

[Jerry]

Mr. Striker:
I certainly appreciate your intensity. However, I do disagree on your point that "Little League" is a teaching league for the kids. Nothing could be further from the truth! YMCA T-Ball is POSSIBLY a teaching league . . . or any league that doesn't keep score; certainly not "Little League". Politics aside . . . my contention is, an umpire is responsible for his/her own calls and actions. If he/she chooses to change a judgement call based on the statements of another player, participant or spectator; that is certainly his/her decision. From a personal standpoint, I feel it is far better for an official to live with their mis-calls (and grab a shovel to dig a hole for themselves)rather than to give in to the temptation of changing their call to suit others. Their credibility is lost much more if folks know they can be persuaded to change their judgement.
Jerry

[GarthB]

Please note:

1. The level of play. Little League majors and below, regular season. Learning baseball.

What's your point? That's the level we allow fans and players to make calls?

2. We're not talking a close play here where the umpire was in position and making the call, or even a play at first being called from the C position. We are discussing a very obvious situation that an umpire missed entirely.

So you can justify this is your mind. At what point can't you justify allowing the crowd to overturn a call? Does it have to be unanimous? What if just one person dissents? Ten, Twenty?

Remember, never does everyone agree on anything.

On my home field, with intra-league teams, Little League majors and below, in THIS situation (long ball over the fence), I am changing my call.

And if I was your assignor, it would be your last call for two weeks.

We expect, at all levels, that umpires work by the rules and standards of practice. I wouldn't know when to again trust an umpire who changed his call because of the crowd's opinion.

[Jerry]

Garth,
Thank-you! Obviously you (and I!) have been there/done that. It's how you handle adversity that seperates the men from the boys. And our profession is one of the few where you can be "wrong" and still be "right".

We all learn . . . eventually.

Jerry

[Striker991]

Hmmmmm....did I say let the crowd make the decision? No, the umpire obviously didn't see the ball. On what basis did he make his decision? You, yourself have said you can't call what you don't see. He didn't see it. The DEFENSIVE PLAYER, to whom there is no benefit, said the ball went over the fence on the fly.

So, rather than give assignments to someone who gets the call right and prevents a huge uproar, you would rather give the games to someone whose seeing eye dog must have been distracted by a cat and turns the field upside down? I would worry about an umpire that doesn't have the depth perception to tell whether or not a ball, less than 200 feet away (because, of course, the umpire was in position down the line to make the call correctly) bounced in front of a fence or not. If I was the board member on duty at that game, his assignor would have received a call from me...

Still no answer on where the partner was in all of this.....

And, you guys are really good at re-defining statements. First, I was coaching; now, I'm letting the crowd make the call....sheeesh....you guys should run for office.

[Striker991]

Little League, majors and below, is very much a teaching league. Look at the structure of the rules. Mandatory play, safety restrictions, etc. It is designed to teach the kids baseball, have fun, and do it safely.

And, if I stick with a call as obviously wrong as this one and I know I didn't see it, and I know what the correct call is, my credibility is down the tubes. The coaches and the players, from then on, will assume I'm guessing on the other close calls as well.

And yes, I am intense on this issue, because it revolves around the purpose of the game itself, in Little League and at this level. The reason we have the violence we do is because parents, coaches, and yes, even officials, take the game to mean way more than it really does.

At this level, Little League majors and below, we should be facilitors and teachers, more than umpires and coaches. Let the kids play. Help them learn. Teach them discipline, teamwork, help them build character.

Have a Little League rule book? Read the motto on the back. Then, call the home run. Do the right thing.

[Jerry]

Mr. Striker:
Now you're a mind reader?

The "home run/ground rule double" in question was not 200 feet from home plate . . . it was 365 feet in straight away centerfield. My BU was PROPERLY watching the BR touch 1st base and following him around; he had no business watching the fly ball.

As the PU, at the crack of the bat I was off and running following the flight of the ball. (Obviously I can't outrun it). As I'm watching the ball, I (and my dog) am also watching the reactions of the outfielders . . . knowing full well that the fence is 4' high, no background and no cushion atop the chain link fence. As I'm peering into the distance, I also watch the centerfielder hold up his hands (whether by prior instruction or by instinct)to indicate a bounce over. My own sight line, and distance where the ball came to rest over the fence, seems to show that it bounced over. I should also note that I pulled up and stopped so as not to prejudice my vision.

Without hesitation, I called a ground rule double. As a courtesy to the 3rd base coach, I said, "I'll check with my partner . . . but it looked like a bounce to me." My partner confirmed that he was watching the runner. So the call was mine and all mine. If I got it wrong, so be it. I told the coach, "Bruce, you've got a 4' fence, no background; I've got a Double."

We continued playing.

Jerry

[GarthB]

Unless I'm mistaken, you said:

"You, for whatever reason, didn't see it (Were you out of position? Where was your partner?). Obviously, the defensive player saw it, and, by your description, so did all the other people on the field and spectating."

Sounds like a crowd to me. You did say the umpire didn't see it but everyone else did. You did say he should change his call because of that.

And yes, I said you can't call what you don't see. Did the umpire see a home run? No. He can't call it. No inconsistency here.

And yes, I will yank assignments from any umpire who uses such poor judgment as to allow the opinion of the crowd, oh, excuse me, I mean the players, spectators and coaches, to change his call. I said, this is a very slippery slope. Once you begin this, where do you stop?

But, you obviously have your mind made up. Far be it for me to attempt to convince you of anything.

Have a wonderful career, and feel free to take the last word. I'm done.

GB

[Edited by GarthB on May 16th, 2003 at 02:52 PM]

[bluezebra]

"BR tells PU it hit the bat not him. PU changes call to foul tip"

Why?

Bob

[David B]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jerry
[B]The "home run/ground rule double" in question was not 200 feet from home plate . . . it was 365 feet in straight away centerfield. My BU was PROPERLY watching the BR touch 1st base and following him around; he had no business watching the fly ball.

I agree that you call only what you as the umpire see as I stated before,

but if a ball is hit 365 feet to straight away center then the BU should be out there watching the play.

The PU can watch the runner touch the bases.

BU has a much better angle for the play and he's a lot closer.

This is a trouble ball and with two umpires working together can be covered fairly easily.

But, BU may not know for sure either and he's got to go with what he saw.

Similiar to a HR hit right down the line but curving badly into foul territory etc., everyone wants the HR, only PU can make the decision though if its fair or foul.

Thanks
David

[just another ref]

I have another thought on this situation. The bottom line is that the game should be called in such a way as to be as fair as possible to everyone. Therefore, it is unfair to the team with the honest kid on it to change the call because, I promise you, there is another team in this league that has a player that, in the same situation, is not going to confess that he dropped the ball, or whatever.

[Jerry]

"but if a ball is hit 365 feet to straight away center then the BU should be out there watching the play"

David,
In a 2-Man System, with BU in the A-Position, the Plate takes all fly balls from 2nd base to the left field stands. Once my partner sees that I'm heading to watch the flight of the ball, he needs to watch the BR. If my partner had turned to watch the ball instead, then you're correct; I would have been following the Batter/Runner.

That wasn't the point of this discussion though. It had to do with an official reversing his call based on the statements of a player versus what the umpire perceived.

Jerry

[Rich]

This is not right.

Technically, the plate umpire takes all fly balls when the base umpire doesn't go out.

And your guideline for going out is not right either. Second base has nothing to do with it -- any ball taking the centerfielder to his right should belong to the plate umpire. Any ball bringing the centerfielder straight in or to his left AND any ball to the left of it can belong to the BU, but only if he goes out.

If the BU umpire goes out, though, REGARDLESS of the location of the ball, he has the ball and the PU must come up and take the runner around.

Rich

[David B]

A fly ball hit 365 feet with potential to be caught or bounce over the fence then BU should be covering it.

Unless the CF is moving in or toward left field.

As you said, this thread was over calling what is perceived,

if the BU goes out (and he should since this is a trouble ball) then there is no perceiving,

he knows for a fact if the ball is caught or if it bounces over the fence.

Thats just good umpiring and why they pay us the big bucks.

That's what I was trying to say.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by Jerry
"but if a ball is hit 365 feet to straight away center then the BU should be out there watching the play"

David,
In a 2-Man System, with BU in the A-Position, the Plate takes all fly balls from 2nd base to the left field stands. Once my partner sees that I'm heading to watch the flight of the ball, he needs to watch the BR. If my partner had turned to watch the ball instead, then you're correct; I would have been following the Batter/Runner.

That wasn't the point of this discussion though. It had to do with an official reversing his call based on the statements of a player versus what the umpire perceived.

Jerry