BR Misses 1st / Beats throw mechanic

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

What if time is called before the overrunning BR can return to 1b or before the defense can properly appeal?

Then the umpire has just screwed up and you have to place the B/R on first base. By calling time, you did not give the B/R an opportunity to complete his baserunning responsibilities.

Hugo, I know that you emailed me about this last week. I searched through all the FED materials I have on hand and all I could come up with is what mbyron posted above from the FED Baseball Umpires Manual...then I forgot to email you back.

But I suppose your doubting colleagues might need more than that. If they don't get the basic premise that a runner passing a base is assumed to have aquired it, pending an appeal, then I'm sure they want an interpretation spelled out and wrapped up in a tidy little bow to convince them otherwise. I couldn't find such a reference for FED.

The Major League Baseball Umpires Manual spells this out exactly as has been stated- signal the B/R safe, then wait for an appeal.

[justanotherblue]

I don't have it with me however, Jaksa/Roder covers this play. You'll need to explain to them the difference between aquiring a base vs. touching a base. Until they understand this concept, they'll never get it.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Then the umpire has just screwed up and you have to place the B/R on first base. By calling time, you did not give the B/R an opportunity to complete his baserunning responsibilities.

Hugo, I know that you emailed me about this last week. I searched through all the FED materials I have on hand and all I could come up with is what mbyron posted above from the FED Baseball Umpires Manual...then I forgot to email you back.

But I suppose your doubting colleagues might need more than that. If they don't get the basic premise that a runner passing a base is assumed to have aquired it, pending an appeal, then I'm sure they want an interpretation spelled out and wrapped up in a tidy little bow to convince them otherwise. I couldn't find such a reference for FED.

The Major League Baseball Umpires Manual spells this out exactly as has been stated- signal the B/R safe, then wait for an appeal.

Bret, you hit the nail on the head...
I have posted this several places and did get the MLB Umpire manual quote which I just emailed to one of them.
Of course, the comment was that they were talking about NFHS,,,

It appears (so far), from inquiring on several boards, that NFHS does not spell it out word for word, nor have a reference to something like " a player who has reached/passed a base is treated as if they touched the base"

Maybe one day they'll get it.
The good thing is - I don't do baseball with them!

[CT1]

At one time, FED had a case play which included the concept of an "unintentional" appeal. That is, if a runner (or B/R) missed a base but any fielder with the ball subsequently touched the missed base, the runner was out by appeal.

PLAY: R1. B2 hits a clean single to center, and R1 goes to third, missing second in the process. F8 throws the ball in to F4 who is standing on second base.

I haven't called FED rules in a few years, but I believe that concept has since been removed.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by CT1

At one time, FED had a case play which included the concept of an "unintentional" appeal. That is, if a runner (or B/R) missed a base but any fielder with the ball subsequently touched the missed base, the runner was out by appeal.

PLAY: R1. B2 hits a clean single to center, and R1 goes to third, missing second in the process. F8 throws the ball in to F4 who is standing on second base.

I haven't called FED rules in a few years, but I believe that concept has since been removed.

The "no accidental appeals" concept is in there.

8.2.6 SITUATION F: With R1 at 1st, B2 hits a double sending R1 to 3rd. However, R1 misses 2nd base. F6 is standing on 2nd when he catches the throw from the outfield. He then throws the ball to the pitcher. RULING: Although R1 missed 2nd, no call will be made by the umpire because F6 did not make an intentional appeal of the missed base.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Bret, you hit the nail on the head...
I have posted this several places and did get the MLB Umpire manual quote which I just emailed to one of them.
Of course, the comment was that they were talking about NFHS,,,

It appears (so far), from inquiring on several boards, that NFHS does not spell it out word for word, nor have a reference to something like " a player who has reached/passed a base is treated as if they touched the base"

Maybe one day they'll get it.
The good thing is - I don't do baseball with them!

Maybe you can get them to realize that's it's a missed base and on a missed base the runner is safe unless appealed.

That concept IS in FED.

[ozzy6900]

Hugo, I've been following this post on this and another board and my advice is simply tell your buddies to get their heads out of their arses! We haven't called the out (in FED) for a missed base since 2004 or 2005 when FED changed the rule. A missed base is a missed base, just like OBR and it is handled the same way.

[HugoTafurst]

Rich, OZZIE and everyone else.

Thanks for confirming the concept.

I don't know if these guys will ever get it coming from me.


I've tried the "missed base requires an appeal" approach, but they were more concerned with "fielder tags the base before the BR touches the base".
I'm sure you've met them.

I sent them the MLB wording but they are saying NFHS is different.
I was hoping I could find something NFHS has written for their benefit.
My last suggestion was to have the assignor (YES, that is one of the people who wants to call the out immediately when F3 catches the ball with his foot on the base) write the state rules interpreter.....


Not much more I can do - I'm just a softball umpire,

Thanks again for your answers.

[BretMan]

Hugo, do you think that a written interpretation from the chairman of the NFHS Baseball Rules Committe would sway them?

Kyle McNeely resides in my state and recently sent a message to our state's umpires regarding the 2012 baseball season. In it, he noted that he was always available via email if anyone had any questions regarding baseball in our state.

I decided to take him up on that!

In an email, I posed this play to him and asked what the FED ruling would be. This was his response:

If a throw is made, and the BR beat it, the umpire is to signal "safe." With the appeal now in our rulebook, the defense must intentionally appeal the missed base. If they do so before the BRgets back to first base, the umpire would now rule "out." We have two distinct situations here. The play, which the BR beat, and the appeal that the defense must make. I think we have that as an AR or casebook play. Think of it this way, on the play itself, the BR beat the throw, he is safe. He did not touch the base and that is now on the defense to appeal. I hope this helps. Feel free to contact me anytime. Kyle

Maybe that will sway them!

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Hugo, do you think that a written interpretation from the chairman of the NFHS Baseball Rules Committe would sway them?

Kyle McNeely resides in my state and recently sent a message to our state's umpires regarding the 2012 baseball season. In it, he noted that he was always available via email if anyone had any questions regarding baseball in our state.

I decided to take him up on that!

In an email, I posed this play to him and asked what the FED ruling would be. This was his response:

If a throw is made, and the BR beat it, the umpire is to signal "safe." With the appeal now in our rulebook, the defense must intentionally appeal the missed base. If they do so before the BRgets back to first base, the umpire would now rule "out." We have two distinct situations here. The play, which the BR beat, and the appeal that the defense must make. I think we have that as an AR or casebook play. Think of it this way, on the play itself, the BR beat the throw, he is safe. He did not touch the base and that is now on the defense to appeal. I hope this helps. Feel free to contact me anytime. Kyle

Maybe that will sway them!

You are officially ..DA MAN

Thanks

[dcmump]

Good discussion.

This relates to a situation observed in Little League, with a safety bag. No runners on, batter grounds to third, BR beats throw to first but steps on white part of bag. Throw arrives and 1B touches white part of bag.

Safety base rules require BR to touch orange part of bag on force attempt, so BR has missed the bag. However, based on this thread, he has acquired the bag and the simple touching of the bag by 1B would appear not to constitute a proper appeal.

BR was save when he passed 1B, and remains safe since no proper appeal.

[REFANDUMP]

Whenever I need that out, I just ask that player who's standing on the base with the ball "what's on the outside of a banana ?" Works every time !!!

[David B]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Rich, OZZIE and everyone else.

Thanks for confirming the concept.

I don't know if these guys will ever get it coming from me.


I've tried the "missed base requires an appeal" approach, but they were more concerned with "fielder tags the base before the BR touches the base".
I'm sure you've met them.

I sent them the MLB wording but they are saying NFHS is different.
I was hoping I could find something NFHS has written for their benefit.
My last suggestion was to have the assignor (YES, that is one of the people who wants to call the out immediately when F3 catches the ball with his foot on the base) write the state rules interpreter.....


Not much more I can do - I'm just a softball umpire,

Thanks again for your answers.

It is in FED. Just tell them to go back to early 2000's when there was an interpretation or something like that in the books. It has since been removed. Of course guys like that probably don't really have an interest in finding the answer, just asking the questions ....

Thanks
David

[MikeStrybel]

This is one of those plays that can really make us look silly even though we are on top of it. Think about it, the BR races down the line, the throw comes in and you have great positioning to see it all unfold. The BR crosses the base a step ahead of the throw. You immediately signal safe and the defense comes unglued, not to mention the bench and stands start in with the "No way's". They are hollering that the guy missed the base and the first baseman turns to go after the BR, now heading back to the base at his coach's direction. The first baseman touches BR with the ball and then holds it up to show you and your partner(s). You then signal out. You did your job and look pretty awful to the aformentioned. Your partner(s) will hopefully know better and offer up a cold one when the time is right. After that, you'll need it.

I've never had to make this call and hope the new year continues the trend. Happy holidays to all.