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-   -   BR Misses 1st / Beats throw mechanic (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/84750-br-misses-1st-beats-throw-mechanic.html)

johnnyg08 Fri Jun 15, 2012 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbmartin (Post 806693)
What if time is called before the overrunning BR can return to 1b or before the defense can properly appeal?

Don't grant time. If you did, you kind of screwed up.

TwoBits Fri Jun 15, 2012 06:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08 (Post 846218)
Don't grant time. If you did, you kind of screwed up.

Disagree in Fed. What if it's the defense requesting time to execute a dead ball appeal?

BretMan Fri Jun 15, 2012 08:54pm

Then you still shouldn't be granting time before the play is over- and it's not over until you've given the runner the opportunity to correct his base running mistake or he's stopped running.

Really...would you grant time on any other play when runners haven't finished running the bases and were still in jeopardy?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 806618)
It's a missed base. Treat it as such.


Please enlighten us as to how to treat it as such per NFHS? I am not sure what you are trying to say.

MTD, Sr.

TwoBits Sat Jun 16, 2012 06:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 846260)
Then you still shouldn't be granting time before the play is over- and it's not over until you've given the runner the opportunity to correct his base running mistake or he's stopped running.

Really...would you grant time on any other play when runners haven't finished running the bases and were still in jeopardy?

If the batter-runner is walking back to first base after over running it and all other runners have quit trying to advance, the play is over. In this situation, I would not hesitate in granting time to the defense. It is the batter runner who has made the mistake and by hesitating in calling time, you are bailing him out.

BretMan Sat Jun 16, 2012 08:37am

I wouldn't consider the play over while the runner still has base running duties to complete and is in the act of completing them.

Using your "logic"...

R1 on first base. Batter hits fly ball to F8. R1 takes off at the crack of the bat. The fly ball is caught. R1 realizes his mistake just short of second base, reverses direction and is heading back to first to correct his mistake.

Would you grant the defense time while R1 is heading back?

Why or why not?

How is the missed first base play any different?

TwoBits Sat Jun 16, 2012 08:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 846332)
I wouldn't consider the play over while the runner still has base running duties to complete and is in the act of completing them.

Using your "logic"...

R1 on first base. Batter hits fly ball to F8. R1 takes off at the crack of the bat. The fly ball is caught. R1 realizes his mistake just short of second base, reverses direction and is heading back to first to correct his mistake.

Would you grant the defense time while R1 is heading back?

Why or why not?

How is the missed first base play any different?

You are describing two entirely different plays. In your situation, "R1 realizes his mistake" before trying to correct it. In my situation, B-R is walking back to the base after overrunning it. If he's walking back, he neither realizes his mistake, nor is he attempting to correct it. The play is over, and the "logical" thing to do would be to grant a defensive timeout and give them an opportunity to make a dead ball appeal.

Caesar's Ghost Sat Jun 16, 2012 09:17am

Case 8.2.2C "The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runer has initiated an attempt to return to the base"

While it's a judgment call, in my judgment, walking back to first is an attempt to return

TwoBits Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:24am

8.2.2 SITUATION C

"The runner from first base misses SECOND base on his way to third..."

Again, we are talking overrunning and missing FIRST base here. I still contend there is a difference between missing any other base and trying to correct the mistake and missing first base and not trying to correct it.

RPatrino Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 846319)
If the batter-runner is walking back to first base after over running it and all other runners have quit trying to advance, the play is over. In this situation, I would not hesitate in granting time to the defense. It is the batter runner who has made the mistake and by hesitating in calling time, you are bailing him out.

If the BR is still walking back toward first, I am not going to grant time until he is touching first and ALL play has ended. What if, by some quirk of fate, the BR decides against all odds and logic, to make a break toward second? This is not likely, but nonetheless, just wait. We don't alter the flow of play to accommodate a possible appeal.

TwoBits Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPatrino (Post 846363)
If the BR is still walking back toward first, I am not going to grant time until he is touching first and ALL play has ended. What if, by some quirk of fate, the BR decides against all odds and logic, to make a break toward second? This is not likely, but nonetheless, just wait. We don't alter the flow of play to accommodate a possible appeal.

Would you grant a live ball appeal if B-R missed first, and F3, while standing on the bag and before the B-R returned to the base, stated that he missed the base and was appealing?

BretMan Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 846333)
You are describing two entirely different plays.

That both involve the same principle. You have a runner who is not yet out, is still liable to be put out, is at the moment still subject to a properly executed live ball appeal and still has the opportunity to correct his base running error before the appeal is made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 846366)
Would you grant a live ball appeal if B-R missed first, and F3, while standing on the bag and before the B-R returned to the base, stated that he missed the base and was appealing?

Sure because that's how a live ball appeal works.

RPatrino Sat Jun 16, 2012 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 846366)
Would you grant a live ball appeal if B-R missed first, and F3, while standing on the bag and before the B-R returned to the base, stated that he missed the base and was appealing?

Of course!! Are you going to call TIME, just for the purposes of allowing a dead ball appeal, when all the F3 has to do is tag the runner or base?

TwoBits Sat Jun 16, 2012 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPatrino (Post 846374)
Of course!! Are you going to call TIME, just for the purposes of allowing a dead ball appeal, when all the F3 has to do is tag the runner or base?

Of course! The defense is executing a legal dead ball appeal. They aren't the ones who screwed up.

I'm done. Agree to disagree.

RPatrino Sat Jun 16, 2012 01:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoBits (Post 846376)
Of course! The defense is executing a legal dead ball appeal. They aren't the ones who screwed up.

I'm done. Agree to disagree.

You may of course grant a time out. You would be wrong. Food for thought, would you not want to allow the BR to correct his baserunning error?


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