BR Misses 1st / Beats throw mechanic
 

I am primarily a softball umpire, but I am looking for the proper NFHS BASEBALL mechanic for calling the play at first base where the BR misses the base, but beats the throw.
The softball mechanic (and I believe MLB baseball) mechanic calls for U1 to signal SAFE and then rule on a proper appeal (if there is one).

I'd like to find the documentation for the NFHS (either way) if it exists.
Thanks


Happy Holidays...

Simply give a safe signal if the BR did indeed beat the throw, "aquiring" the base. It now becomes an appeal play and it's up to the defense to recognize that an proper appeal must be made. Then you would make your ruling.

Thank you.
I'm still looking for NFHS documentation as I am in a discussion with a few HS baseball umpires who insist that an (immediate out call is the correct mechanic.
My word carries no weight. ;-)

NFHS Baseball Umpires Manual, p. 35: the umpire should make no signal that would tip either team to a baserunning error.

If you fail to signal that the runner beat the ball, you will signal the defense that the runner missed the base. Thus the proper mechanic is to signal "safe" and rule on any properly constituted subsequent appeal.

It's a missed base. Treat it as such.

What if time is called before the overrunning BR can return to 1b or before the defense can properly appeal?

Then the umpire has just screwed up and you have to place the B/R on first base. By calling time, you did not give the B/R an opportunity to complete his baserunning responsibilities.

Hugo, I know that you emailed me about this last week. I searched through all the FED materials I have on hand and all I could come up with is what mbyron posted above from the FED Baseball Umpires Manual...then I forgot to email you back.

But I suppose your doubting colleagues might need more than that. If they don't get the basic premise that a runner passing a base is assumed to have aquired it, pending an appeal, then I'm sure they want an interpretation spelled out and wrapped up in a tidy little bow to convince them otherwise. I couldn't find such a reference for FED.

The Major League Baseball Umpires Manual spells this out exactly as has been stated- signal the B/R safe, then wait for an appeal.

I don't have it with me however, Jaksa/Roder covers this play. You'll need to explain to them the difference between aquiring a base vs. touching a base. Until they understand this concept, they'll never get it.

Bret, you hit the nail on the head...
I have posted this several places and did get the MLB Umpire manual quote which I just emailed to one of them.
Of course, the comment was that they were talking about NFHS,,,

It appears (so far), from inquiring on several boards, that NFHS does not spell it out word for word, nor have a reference to something like " a player who has reached/passed a base is treated as if they touched the base"

Maybe one day they'll get it.:confused:
The good thing is - I don't do baseball with them!
;)

At one time, FED had a case play which included the concept of an "unintentional" appeal. That is, if a runner (or B/R) missed a base but any fielder with the ball subsequently touched the missed base, the runner was out by appeal.

PLAY: R1. B2 hits a clean single to center, and R1 goes to third, missing second in the process. F8 throws the ball in to F4 who is standing on second base.

I haven't called FED rules in a few years, but I believe that concept has since been removed.

The "no accidental appeals" concept is in there.

8.2.6 SITUATION F: With R1 at 1st, B2 hits a double sending R1 to 3rd. However, R1 misses 2nd base. F6 is standing on 2nd when he catches the throw from the outfield. He then throws the ball to the pitcher. RULING: Although R1 missed 2nd, no call will be made by the umpire because F6 did not make an intentional appeal of the missed base.

Maybe you can get them to realize that's it's a missed base and on a missed base the runner is safe unless appealed.

That concept IS in FED.

Hugo, I've been following this post on this and another board and my advice is simply tell your buddies to get their heads out of their arses! We haven't called the out (in FED) for a missed base since 2004 or 2005 when FED changed the rule. A missed base is a missed base, just like OBR and it is handled the same way.

Thanks
 

Rich, OZZIE and everyone else.

Thanks for confirming the concept.

I don't know if these guys will ever get it coming from me.


I've tried the "missed base requires an appeal" approach, but they were more concerned with "fielder tags the base before the BR touches the base". :eek:
I'm sure you've met them.:rolleyes:

I sent them the MLB wording but they are saying NFHS is different.
I was hoping I could find something NFHS has written for their benefit.
My last suggestion was to have the assignor (YES, that is one of the people who wants to call the out immediately when F3 catches the ball with his foot on the base) write the state rules interpreter.....


Not much more I can do - I'm just a softball umpire,:cool:

Thanks again for your answers.

Hugo, do you think that a written interpretation from the chairman of the NFHS Baseball Rules Committe would sway them? :rolleyes:

Kyle McNeely resides in my state and recently sent a message to our state's umpires regarding the 2012 baseball season. In it, he noted that he was always available via email if anyone had any questions regarding baseball in our state.

I decided to take him up on that!

In an email, I posed this play to him and asked what the FED ruling would be. This was his response:

If a throw is made, and the BR beat it, the umpire is to signal "safe." With the appeal now in our rulebook, the defense must intentionally appeal the missed base. If they do so before the BRgets back to first base, the umpire would now rule "out." We have two distinct situations here. The play, which the BR beat, and the appeal that the defense must make. I think we have that as an AR or casebook play. Think of it this way, on the play itself, the BR beat the throw, he is safe. He did not touch the base and that is now on the defense to appeal. I hope this helps. Feel free to contact me anytime. Kyle

Maybe that will sway them!

You are officially ..DA MAN

Thanks

Was in FED once but now removed
 

It is in FED. Just tell them to go back to early 2000's when there was an interpretation or something like that in the books. It has since been removed. Of course guys like that probably don't really have an interest in finding the answer, just asking the questions ....

Thanks
David

This is one of those plays that can really make us look silly even though we are on top of it. Think about it, the BR races down the line, the throw comes in and you have great positioning to see it all unfold. The BR crosses the base a step ahead of the throw. You immediately signal safe and the defense comes unglued, not to mention the bench and stands start in with the "No way's". They are hollering that the guy missed the base and the first baseman turns to go after the BR, now heading back to the base at his coach's direction. The first baseman touches BR with the ball and then holds it up to show you and your partner(s). You then signal out. You did your job and look pretty awful to the aformentioned. Your partner(s) will hopefully know better and offer up a cold one when the time is right. After that, you'll need it.

I've never had to make this call and hope the new year continues the trend. Happy holidays to all.

There are many ways to call SAFE. On a missed bag, close one, you don't need to go with the loud bark, followed by a sharp mechanic, like if you would if he actually hit the bag. Just a gentle signal (don't hold it, though). Let them figure it out.

As far as aquiring the bag, I've been taught it's when when the trailing foot crossed the leading edge of the bag. Is that universal, or is it different in different flavors of ball?

My eyes aren't good enough to tell if the trailing foot has passed the leading edge of the bag. The runner has to pass the base (acquiring it) before the ball gets there. If I am going to call him safe on the miss, it's going to look like he easily beat the throw. Otherwise, I'm banging him.

The end of the story (in my neighborhood anyway)
 

I sent my friends a copy of Bretman's response from Kyle McNeely.
The response was positive and I was thanked for getting the information and my perseverence.

:)

The world is good.

Kyle, aquiring the base is simply a matter of did the runner beat the ball. Is his body beyond the base when the ball is caught. If his front foot is on the ground beyond the bag, his trailing foot may very well not have crossed the leading edge. Did he "beat" the throw in this instance? IMHO, yes he did. I don't belive you can simply use his trailing foot and or if his body is necessarly beyond F3. Especially if F3 is receiving the ball from the 3b line area where he is stretching for the ball. Good timing and better positioning are a must on this type of play. Best of luck and Merry Christmas.

Using the trailing foot is not something I came up with. I just don't recall what ruleset, or interpretation it came from. It is out there, though.

It is his trailing foot, but it's past the back edge of the base, not the leading edge of the base.

You might be surprised. It's not as tough as you're making it.

Here's what you don't want to do...

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...72107&c_id=mlb

Only 3 mistakes on one play.

F3 sure looked like he was making an intentional appeal. He's looking right at the umpire holding his foot on the base. Perhaps he didn't verbalize it. If the umpire bangs him out on the appeal, it would sure look a lot cleaner.

On another note, can you imagine how the crowd would have erupted had he signaled safe and then out.

Good discussion.

This relates to a situation observed in Little League, with a safety bag. No runners on, batter grounds to third, BR beats throw to first but steps on white part of bag. Throw arrives and 1B touches white part of bag.

Safety base rules require BR to touch orange part of bag on force attempt, so BR has missed the bag. However, based on this thread, he has acquired the bag and the simple touching of the bag by 1B would appear not to constitute a proper appeal.

BR was save when he passed 1B, and remains safe since no proper appeal.

Whenever I need that out, I just ask that player who's standing on the base with the ball "what's on the outside of a banana ?" Works every time !!! :D:D:D

Don't grant time. If you did, you kind of screwed up.

Disagree in Fed. What if it's the defense requesting time to execute a dead ball appeal?

Then you still shouldn't be granting time before the play is over- and it's not over until you've given the runner the opportunity to correct his base running mistake or he's stopped running.

Really...would you grant time on any other play when runners haven't finished running the bases and were still in jeopardy?

Please enlighten us as to how to treat it as such per NFHS? I am not sure what you are trying to say.

MTD, Sr.

If the batter-runner is walking back to first base after over running it and all other runners have quit trying to advance, the play is over. In this situation, I would not hesitate in granting time to the defense. It is the batter runner who has made the mistake and by hesitating in calling time, you are bailing him out.

I wouldn't consider the play over while the runner still has base running duties to complete and is in the act of completing them.

Using your "logic"...

R1 on first base. Batter hits fly ball to F8. R1 takes off at the crack of the bat. The fly ball is caught. R1 realizes his mistake just short of second base, reverses direction and is heading back to first to correct his mistake.

Would you grant the defense time while R1 is heading back?

Why or why not?

How is the missed first base play any different?

You are describing two entirely different plays. In your situation, "R1 realizes his mistake" before trying to correct it. In my situation, B-R is walking back to the base after overrunning it. If he's walking back, he neither realizes his mistake, nor is he attempting to correct it. The play is over, and the "logical" thing to do would be to grant a defensive timeout and give them an opportunity to make a dead ball appeal.

Case 8.2.2C "The defense cannot appeal the missed base if the runer has initiated an attempt to return to the base"

While it's a judgment call, in my judgment, walking back to first is an attempt to return

8.2.2 SITUATION C

"The runner from first base misses SECOND base on his way to third..."

Again, we are talking overrunning and missing FIRST base here. I still contend there is a difference between missing any other base and trying to correct the mistake and missing first base and not trying to correct it.

If the BR is still walking back toward first, I am not going to grant time until he is touching first and ALL play has ended. What if, by some quirk of fate, the BR decides against all odds and logic, to make a break toward second? This is not likely, but nonetheless, just wait. We don't alter the flow of play to accommodate a possible appeal.

Would you grant a live ball appeal if B-R missed first, and F3, while standing on the bag and before the B-R returned to the base, stated that he missed the base and was appealing?

That both involve the same principle. You have a runner who is not yet out, is still liable to be put out, is at the moment still subject to a properly executed live ball appeal and still has the opportunity to correct his base running error before the appeal is made.

Sure because that's how a live ball appeal works.

Of course!! Are you going to call TIME, just for the purposes of allowing a dead ball appeal, when all the F3 has to do is tag the runner or base?

Of course! The defense is executing a legal dead ball appeal. They aren't the ones who screwed up.

I'm done. Agree to disagree.

You may of course grant a time out. You would be wrong. Food for thought, would you not want to allow the BR to correct his baserunning error?

If F3 thinks the BR missed 1b he is going to tag him, or stand with ball on base and ask for an appeal. The whole discussion is not realistic because F3 is not going to call time for specific purpose of dead ball appeal.

And why would we call time without a reason, and specifically when there is reason not to?