How would you call it?

Newbie Scott · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 01:14pm

I am a first year ump and I have a question regarding proper mechanics. Last night I had a force play at third where the runner beat the throw but slid past the base. My question is do you call the runner safe at third right away even though he slid past the base and then call him out if he gets tagged or do you wait to see if he gets back to the base without being tagged out? Would you approach it different if it wasn't a force play?

thumpferee · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 02:02pm

IMO...On the force play at third with the runner beating the throw, the first play was the force out, so you safe him. Now he slides past the bag and now you have a new play on.
Bang him or safe him again, whatever the case may be.
You also asked: Would you approach it different if it wasn't a force play? Depends. Let the play develop and finish. Delay your call, because on that play the fielder probably still has his eye on the runner and an ensuing tag will follow quickly. On the force, usually the fielder will not be looking at the runner, but its not your job to say: "he's off the bag". You may also want to watch the over-slide, it's an illegal slide and you can get him for interference. JMO

chris s · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Newbie Scott
I am a first year ump and I have a question regarding proper mechanics. Last night I had a force play at third where the runner beat the throw but slid past the base. My question is do you call the runner safe at third right away even though he slid past the base and then call him out if he gets tagged or do you wait to see if he gets back to the base without being tagged out? Would you approach it different if it wasn't a force play?

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Usually these are bang bang plays. runner overslides...fielder sees runner scrambling back..tag happens or it doesn't.Sell the final call, sometimes you can't "SAFE", then "OUT" that quick. More than likely, everybody saw the overslide and ensuing play, just like the sliding R1 into second on a steal and the ball sails into CF, we got no signal, cept if there is ensuing play. Hope this helps.....

DownTownTonyBrown · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 03:00pm

He's not out till you call him out.

A safe call is almost unimportant. The times when I feel it is important to make an emphatic safe call (and the others are unimportant) are a tight play at 1st, a missed tag, a missed catch, a close pick-off play, or a missed base by the defense (like the front end of a double play).

In the scenario you posed, I would not make any call. PERIOD. Until it was determined that he was out or he was safe. When he is off the base the runner is in jeopardy AND THE PLAY IS NOT OVER. Make no call until it is over.

The 3rd baseman may not realize that he is off the base and may come up throwing to 1st.... now you need to direct your attention to 1st. Anything else may mean that you have entered the game by tipping off the 3rd baseman that he should be trying to tag the runner.

The safe call only needs to be made when an attempt to put the runner out is being made by the defense. Otherwise the action can nearly be ignored (A simple safe signal and a quiet to moderate volume call can be made as the game situation dictates.) If the play is important to the immediate defensive action, a stronger, louder, more emphatic signal and call needs to be made.

In your situation, I suggest that you wait and make no call unless the defense attempts a tag. If no other play is being made and the runner scrambles back to the bag, then a simple safe signal is adequate.

PeteBooth · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 10:52pm

Originally posted by Newbie Scott

My question is do you call the runner safe at third right away even though he slid past the base and then call him out if he gets tagged or do you wait to see if he gets back to the base without being tagged out?

First it depends upon what rules you are playing by. Since you are a newbie I doubt you are using HS (FED) rules but just in case you are. In FED, the call is OUT because an "accidental appeal" of a forced to base is allowed.

By that I mean even though the runner beat the throw, he did not TOUCH the base, so if the fielder even "accidentally" touches third base with the ball, in FED we record the out.

In OBR, it depends. Generally speaking it's not good mechanics to make 2 calls on the same play. If it's bang bang meaning the runner overslides the base, trys to scramble back and the fielder attempts a tag, then we make the Call. IMO you don't need to say safe then change "right away" to out, because all the action happened simultaneously.

Now if there is a "pause" in the action meaning the fielder does not attempt a tag then the call is safe.

Would you approach it different if it wasn't a force play?

If the play isn't a force play it is a TIME Play and in that situation we say nothing until some "action" takes place.

Pete Booth

Whowefoolin · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 22, 2003, 11:11pm

Pete,

You seem confused. And might be confusing this fellow. There was not an "accidental appeal". There was a tag after he slid by. I understand that it is undetermined if he touched the base first before sliding by or not. But there was a tag applied.

However, in FED, there is a dead ball appeal, and a normal appeal. But never heard of an "accidental appeal" in FED. Can you give some direction and guidance on that?

Anyway, everything should be slowed down and looked at. So make only one call, sell it, stand behind it, and then brace for it!

thumpferee · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 04:27am

Ok...so you say don't safe him, wait and make one call? Here's a situation. Bottom of the 7th, score tied, runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 out, the count is full, and the runners are going on the pitch. B1 hits grounder to F6 who throws to 2nd for the force. Runner beats the initial throw for the force out but overslides the bag. R1 from 2nd is trying for home for the game winning run. You telling me, you don't make a safe call on the FORCE out to give the fielder a chance to get R1 out at home???? WRONG!
If he was out you would call it immediately, why not the safe? If he was out no need for throw home, inning over. Isn't the safe call just as important? Bottom line Newbie Scott, there seems to be no PROPER MECHANIC here, just opinions. And this has been JMO.

PeteBooth · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 07:03am

Originally posted by Whowefoolin

Pete,

However, in FED, there is a dead ball appeal, and a normal appeal. But never heard of an "accidental appeal" in FED. Can you give some direction and guidance on that?

The "accidental appeal" in FED has not changed and has been around. There is a FED Case Play which demonstrates the accidental appeal. I am work right now but I think the case play number is 8.2.3 which talks about B1 hitting a slow roller to F6 and B1 beats the throw to First base but does not TOUCH it. F3 however, has foot and ball on first base bag - In FED we record the out.

Pete Booth

bob jenkins · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 07:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by Whowefoolin

Pete,

However, in FED, there is a dead ball appeal, and a normal appeal. But never heard of an "accidental appeal" in FED. Can you give some direction and guidance on that?

The "accidental appeal" in FED has not changed and has been around. There is a FED Case Play which demonstrates the accidental appeal. I am work right now but I think the case play number is 8.2.3 which talks about B1 hitting a slow roller to F6 and B1 beats the throw to First base but does not TOUCH it. F3 however, has foot and ball on first base bag - In FED we record the out.

Pete Booth

Yes, it's 8.2.3, but note that FED doesn't use the term "accidental appeal." In fact, the ruling specifically says that "F3 is not required to appeal the missed base."

It's more of a literal interpretation of "force out" (the defense touches the base before the offense touches the base).

chris s · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 11:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by thumpferee
Ok...so you say don't safe him, wait and make one call? Here's a situation. Bottom of the 7th, score tied, runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 out, the count is full, and the runners are going on the pitch. B1 hits grounder to F6 who throws to 2nd for the force. Runner beats the initial throw for the force out but overslides the bag. R1 from 2nd is trying for home for the game winning run. You telling me, you don't make a safe call on the FORCE out to give the fielder a chance to get R1 out at home???? WRONG!
If he was out you would call it immediately, why not the safe? If he was out no need for throw home, inning over. Isn't the safe call just as important? Bottom line Newbie Scott, there seems to be no PROPER MECHANIC here, just opinions. And this has been JMO.

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JIMO, Dude, everybody see's the overslide!If thier just freakin stupid, we got ensuing play.Players are suppossed to pay attention, just like BOO, RIGHT? AND.. as a coacoch, if my runners arent busting full out on a 2 out hit, there're doin situps! and yes there is a proper mechanic. I got 2 friends that wnt to "wendle's school", give a safe, if ya can, but call the ensuing play. This is one that everyone ses, by the players actions...lets beat this horse to death

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DownTownTonyBrown · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 12:10pm

Newbie Scott, perhaps I assumed (***-u-me) incorrectly.

I have had similar play at 3rd. Runner slides and touches the base but continues to slide past the base.

After the initial touch the force is off. However he is now off the base and in jeopardy.

If this was your case, I would not make any call until the play was finished - OUT if the runner is tagged while off the base, or a SAFE if the runner gets back to the base before being tagged.

NOW, as Pete is suggesting that the runner DID NOT TOUCH the base and simply slid by missing everything... the force is still on. If the fielder now touches the base... this is the time for an emphatic OUT call and a sell that the runner did not touch the base on his way through.

DownTownTonyBrown · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 12:29pm

Thumpferee, yours is a different situation. Time was not of the essence in the original play at 3rd. Your play makes timing important.

I likely would emphatically sell the SAFE call at 2nd. And if the fielder was smart enough to tag the runner out that is 2 feet away from him at 2nd rather than throwing home, I would ADD TO MY CALL, "Yeah, now he's out!" Hopefully my partener would recoginze the importance of timing and call the run good, or not, at home based upon the time of the tagout at 2nd.

In your scenario, you suggested that if the runner was out at 2nd, the out call would be immediate. In this case there is no reason to hurry or to sell the call. It would be at my own pace and a matter-of-fact call. JMHO

Generally, I have found the defense is EXPECTING the out call at 2nd and when I call the runner safe, the defense is lost and unsure whether they should tag, throw, take a pee, ask their coach for advice, etc.... and by then the slide through is back on base and the run has scored.

To call a runner safe when he has slid through and is off-base is a gray area that calls for HTBT - it is not an everytime deal.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Apr 23rd, 2003 at 12:34 PM]

tucktheump · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 23, 2003, 04:40pm

Timing!
in either case, good timing will save you all grief.

cowbyfan1 · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Apr 24, 2003, 05:25am

in both situations I am waiting for the play to finish before I make any call. Proper timing should not give you the time give that safe really cuz about the time you should be ready to give a safe the runner has slide off the bag by then. Is he safe then?? No, not at that point. If the defense is paying attention at all they would realize he is off the bag, apply the tag and if he is out then at that point give a good loud WITH THE TAG, HE'S OUT!!! Now if you partner is doing his job he should be off the dirt behind home to get that timing play and then call it if the runner scored or not as he should see when the tag was applied.
Think of it as a force at first and the throw beats the runner by a step or two. Your not gonna fire off an out only to have to give a safe right behind it when F3 drops the throw.