d-backs/padres ending

[Larry1953]

Another play covered by 4.09(b) would be catcher's interference. Same mechanics as a walk or HBP.

But, say it was an uncaught third strike. You could retire R1 or R2 if for some reason they did not touch the next base by a force out mechanic.

Or take this situation. Grounder to third toward short. R2 stops so as not to be tagged. F5's throw goes over head of F4 into RF. R2 thinks the winning run scored and exuberantly races to the plate to join the celebration without touching third. He can still be forced out at third to negate the apparent winning run.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Another play covered by 4.09(b) would be catcher's interference. Same mechanics as a walk or HBP.

But, say it was an uncaught third strike. You could retire R1 or R2 if for some reason they did not touch the next base by a force out mechanic.

Or take this situation. Grounder to third toward short. R2 stops so as not to be tagged. F5's throw goes over head of F4 into RF. R2 thinks the winning run scored and exuberantly races to the plate to join the celebration without touching third. He can still be forced out at third to negate the apparent winning run.

If the game is over (as the rule says) when the BR touches 1B and R3 touches home, how can you then force out a runner?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

If the game is over (as the rule says) when the BR touches 1B and R3 touches home, how can you then force out a runner?

Rich, 4.09(b) says the game is not over UNTIL (not "when"). There is nothing in that wording that takes off the force. Say B/R hits a slow grounder to third and beats the throw to first. Meanwhile, R1 pulls a hamstring on his way to second and falls down incapacitated. He can still be forced at second for the third out to preserve the tie.

Why would 4.09(a) not ALWAYS apply?
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Rich, 4.09(b) says the game is not over UNTIL (not "when"). There is nothing in that wording that takes off the force. Say B/R hits a slow grounder to third and beats the throw to first. Meanwhile, R1 pulls a hamstring on his way to second and falls down incapacitated. He can still be forced at second for the third out to preserve the tie.

Why would 4.09(a) not ALWAYS apply?
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

Do you not see the difference? This part of the rule paragraph (a) is for an inning ender not a game ender as (b) is for a game ender, thus the specific note that only the BR and R3 need to advance. You even cite your own answer. "The game is not over until R3 and the BR touch their bases. Thus excluding the other two runners from having to advance. If they wanted them included they would added them to that part of the rule. OBR is known for some vaguely written rules, but this one is not one of them. It is very specific and precise.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Do you not see the difference? This part of the rule paragraph (a) is for an inning ender not a game ender as (b) is for a game ender, thus the specific note that only the BR and R3 need to advance. You even cite your own answer. "The game is not over until R3 and the BR touch their bases. Thus excluding the other two runners from having to advance. If they wanted them included they would added them to that part of the rule. OBR is known for some vaguely written rules, but this one is not one of them. It is very specific and precise.

Your interpretation and reasoning is incorrect. It hinges on the word "until". Note also the "exception". The rule is not meant to say, there is an exception to the exception about force plays. Think about it, has ANY MLB umpire crew worked out a mechanic to TIME a 5-4 force in the bases loaded 2 out situation to see if R3 crosses the plate before the force is made at second? Never, never in 50 years of watching baseball has this ever been remotely considered.

OK...4.09(b)...."or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance..." Fine, the batter hits a towering fly to the gap warning track deep. Is this "a play"? Yes. Does it force R3 to advance? Yes. Does R3 cross the plate and B/R reach first before the catch is made? Easily done, it was hit that deep. Then, according to rule 4.09(b) the run counts and the game is over. Well, we all know that is wrong because of the way the third out was made. It is the SAME thing if the third out is made by a force (at any base).

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Your interpretation and reasoning is incorrect. It hinges on the word "until". Note also the "exception". The rule is not meant to say, there is an exception to the exception about force plays. Think about it, has ANY MLB umpire crew worked out a mechanic to TIME a 5-4 force in the bases loaded 2 out situation to see if R3 crosses the plate before the force is made at second? Never, never in 50 years of watching baseball has this ever been remotely considered.

Your scenario doesnt fit the criteria in the slightest. I will try this one more time and then if you insist, you can just be wrong and be happy.

The rule states that if R3 and BR reach their base in a game ending scenario, the game is over at that time, period, and the progress of R1 and R2 has no bearing on the game that has just ended by R3 and BR reaching their advanced base.

You do see that you are the only one clinging to your philosophy? And your 5-4 mechanic, or whatever you are trying to propose is another fact that goes against your own reasoning because it does not happen. Bottom line is that once R3 scores, and BR reaches 1st base the game is over and the bell aint getting unrung.

[Larry1953]

OK, one last time here: R3 CANNOT "score" a run IF the third out is made by a force. Even if the force is a Merkle type boner. The game is not over until the run "scores". The run does not "score" until a third out force situation is resolved. If the third out is a force out no run can score. That is one of the most fundamental rules in baseball. Jeesh!

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Your interpretation and reasoning is incorrect. It hinges on the word "until". Note also the "exception". The rule is not meant to say, there is an exception to the exception about force plays. Think about it, has ANY MLB umpire crew worked out a mechanic to TIME a 5-4 force in the bases loaded 2 out situation to see if R3 crosses the plate before the force is made at second? Never, never in 50 years of watching baseball has this ever been remotely considered.

OK...4.09(b)...."or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance..." Fine, the batter hits a towering fly to the gap warning track deep. Is this "a play"? Yes. Does it force R3 to advance? Yes. Does R3 cross the plate and B/R reach first before the catch is made? Easily done, it was hit that deep. Then, according to rule 4.09(b) the run counts and the game is over. Well, we all know that is wrong because of the way the third out was made. It is the SAME thing if the third out is made by a force (at any base).

There you go, since you added this try getting around it. You cant. There was never a third out because as the rule states - the game is over, period. Be happy and wrong though. We still love ya.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by umpjong

There you go, since you added this try getting around it. You cant. There was never a third out because as the rule states - the game is over, period. Be happy and wrong though. We still love ya.

You're pulling my leg now. Probably have been all along.