d-backs/padres ending

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Try reading 4.09(b) - all the way through.

Baseball is not my game, and your rules make my head hurt. The first parts of the rule seem relatively clear -- run counts unless the runner from third declines to run home or the BR does not promptly touch first. (Unless there is some fan interference.) Seems to cover the situation.

Then I get to stuff like this and it's where y'all lose me: "When a runner misses a base and a fielder holds the ball on a missed base, or on the base originally occupied by the runner if a fly ball is caught, and appeals for the umpire's decision, the runner is out when the umpire sustains the appeal; all runners may score if possible, except that with two out the runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained as applied to the following runners."

As I read this, it relates to the timing of when the out at third occurs, which apparently can occur in some cases when the appeal is granted and in others when the base was missed, although the "as applied to the following runners" is as clear as mud to me. But as I understand it, it all is irrelevant if the runner from third touched home and the BR touched first. (Which seems consistent with how the crew chief handled it, because he seemed to go directly to the first base U.)

Originally Posted by Larry1953

I think I heard Bud Black protested the decision. It sounds like they appealed to third in which case it was a timing play and the run had crossed the plate by that time. I guess it could be argued that an out could be called for abandonment and when that out could have been called before the run scored.

They said on the telecast that he did in fact protest, based on the explanation he was given, whatever that means. There did appear to be an appeal at third, though the appeal was well after the runner from third touched home. It is unclear to me from the rule quoted above when and whether the out can be declared earlier than the appeal in this situation, but if it matters, at the time the runner from third touched home, the runner from second had taken a direct line from second base toward the third base dug out, and was on the infield grass. I don't know whether this is enough to be declared out on an advance on a walk -- he clearly had not left the field or anything and easily could have taken a right hand turn and run toward third if he'd wanted to. The 3BU did not make any kind of mechanic to signal an out before the run scored.

[bob jenkins]

An out for abandoment is NEVER a force play, by interpretation, in MLB (and MiLB, I think).

Some think the interp should be changed and/or the rule should be clarified.

[mbyron]

Under OBR R3 needs to touch the plate and BR needs to touch 1B. R1 and R2 can do what they like. Sounds as if that's what happened.

[txump81]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Under OBR R3 needs to touch the plate and BR needs to touch 1B. R1 and R2 can do what they like. Sounds as if that's what happened.

Straight from 4.09b.

Also, where does it say that a runner must go straight to the next base. He is just making a creative baseline. No tag play is eminent, so he can make his own "baseline". Besides that, 4.09b says it doesn't matter. Case closed.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by txump81

Straight from 4.09b.

Also, where does it say that a runner must go straight to the next base. He is just making a creative baseline. No tag play is eminent, so he can make his own "baseline". Besides that, 4.09b says it doesn't matter. Case closed.

Any runner can be called out if they progress a resonable distance toward their dugout, obviously abandoning all efforts to run the bases. No need to wait for a fielder to try and attempt a tag.

Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Under OBR R3 needs to touch the plate and BR needs to touch 1B. R1 and R2 can do what they like. Sounds as if that's what happened.

Exactly, just like on a walk-off hit. As soon as R3 touches home and the BR touches first, the game is over and R1 and R2 are of no consequence. Black had no grounds for protest, and frankly should have not grasped at straws just because his crappy team lost yet another game. Looked kind of silly.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Exactly, just like on a walk-off hit. As soon as R3 touches home and the BR touches first, the game is over and R1 and R2 are of no consequence. Black had no grounds for protest, and frankly should have not grasped at straws just because his crappy team lost yet another game. Looked kind of silly.

Look at this way, the Padres folded early this year and got it over with.

Think 2007 & 2010.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Look at this way, the Padres folded early this year and got it over with.

Think 2007 & 2010.

Yes, those years they didn't realize how crappy they were until near the end of the season.

[Rich]

I don't get what's so complicated about this.

When a runner is forced to advance, he must complete his advance. So, batted ball, uncaught third strike -- R1 and R2 (as well as the BR and R3) must advance or they are liable to be forced out. BB, HBP -- only the BR and R3 must advance.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Exactly, just like on a walk-off hit. As soon as R3 touches home and the BR touches first, the game is over and R1 and R2 are of no consequence. Black had no grounds for protest, and frankly should have not grasped at straws just because his crappy team lost yet another game. Looked kind of silly.

JEA says on a walk off hit all the forced runners have to advance and touch the next base. This is not in the MLBUM or the rule though. I'm not sure where Evans came up with that but a lot of folks seem to e running with it.

Isn't that the Merkle play?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

JEA says on a walk off hit all the forced runners have to advance and touch the next base. This is not in the MLBUM or the rule though. I'm not sure where Evans came up with that but a lot of folks seem to e running with it.

Isn't that the Merkle play?

Yes it is the Merkle play. The rule is different for a walk-off walk or HBP. If the ball is hit, the "force is on" and being a forced third out would negate the run.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Yes it is the Merkle play. The rule is different for a walk-off walk or HBP. If the ball is hit, the "force is on" and being a forced third out would negate the run.

Not true. Here is what 4.09b says and its absolutely clear.

4.09b When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter runner has touched first base.

As mbryon stated earlier what the runner from 1st and 2nd do is irrelevant. They do not have to advance to the next base. Only the batter and scoring runner.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Under OBR R3 needs to touch the plate and BR needs to touch 1B. R1 and R2 can do what they like. Sounds as if that's what happened.

Not EVERYTHING they like... For example - R2 cannot sprint to third and pass R3 before R3 reaches home. Other examples like this.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not EVERYTHING they like... For example - R2 cannot sprint to third and pass R3 before R3 reaches home. Other examples like this.

Good point, Mike. They also cannot murder the pitcher, and other examples like this. Thanks for helping to keep it real.

The OP wanted to know whether R1 and R2 had to touch their advance base in this case. They don't. Hope that is clearer than my original answer.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well, another Hardy Boys mystery is solved. Bob will be right here shortly with the lock.