pulled foot at 1st - getting help

[Patrick Szalapski]

T Alan casts his opponents in this friendly discussion as umpires who believe that "getting the call right is the ONLY important thing."

That seems to be a mischaracterization. This is one specific situation, and certainly there are many others which might cast one as a "correct-at-all-costs" umpire.

I would cast us as those who seek to get a certain call right vitrually 100% of the time in a situation where it is very easy and popular to do so. Many pulled feet can be seen by the BU; many cannot. For those that cannot, the question can be asked and answered in 2-3 seconds, and everyone is happy.

"Bob, did he pull his foot!"
'He pulled his foot!'
"Then he's SAFE!"

P-Sz

[Rog]

re:
"Bob, did he pull his foot!"
'He pulled his foot!'
"Then he's SAFE!"
So, do you ask on everyone of these calls?
If not, then expect to hear this
(or a reasonable fascimile) - - -

Coach: "Hey, blue how come it seems that you always ask for the other team ans never for ours?"

I choose to leave the lid on Pandora's box.....

[GarthB]

Patrick:

I may regret re-entering this thread, but here goes.

1. I don't believe Tee ever said, and I certainly don't believe that one can never ask for help on this call. Indeed, we both have stated that if asked by our partners, we've got them covered.

Now some have insinuated that we would then degrade our partners for asking. Not true. What I would do is ask him after the game if he can see in retrospect if he could have had a better position on the play. I would want to get him thinking about improving his mechanics. Is that wrong?

2. What we have said, and what I have seen missing from some others is that we believe that umpires should be trained and encouraged to learn from their mistakes and correct their mechanics so that they don't need to ask in the future. Is that wrong?

3. It appears to me that several of the other posters have chosen to disregard point one above and downplay point two.


This is why I have suggested that some umpires appear to spend more time and energy justifying asking than they do teaching better mechanics. I believe it should be the other way around.

Given that asking is allowed, is my above point wrong?

I don't believe it is reactionary, old school, arrogant, stubborn or inappropriate in any way to encourage and advocate umpire education and training.

[Jim Porter]

I'm not against communicating with one's partner. I'm not against post-game discussions. I'm not against learning to improve.

But I am against the mindset that believes something is wrong with an umpire, his abilities, or his knowledge if he feels it is necessary to go to his partner, using the prescribed mechanics, for help on a pulled foot at first. There is nothing, "wrong," with his mechanics. There is no area that needs improvement. Anyone who believes there is just might be living in the past. The game isn't officiated that way anymore.

Now, the participants, the spectators, the league administrators - the people who pay us our game fees - are pretty much demanding nowadays that us umpires do everything we can to remove all doubt about our calls, including changing our calls when possible and proper, as well as going to our partners when the mechanics allow.

Now, I keep hearing from those on the other side of this argument about how the sky will fall if we go to our partners, and the next thing we know the coach will be out
there every five minutes, etc. However, I sit in a position of great insight. I have used the aforementioned mechanic on numerous occasions. I can tell you that, when done properly, it looks crisp, clean, and extraordinarily professional. It is a delight to your employers, and there simply isn't a reason on God's green Earth not to use it.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by GarthB

Now some have insinuated that we would then degrade our partners for asking. Not true. What I would do is ask him after the game if he can see in retrospect if he could have had a better position on the play. I would want to get him thinking about improving his mechanics. Is that wrong?

2. What we have said, and what I have seen missing from some others is that we believe that umpires should be trained and encouraged to learn from their mistakes and correct their mechanics so that they don't need to ask in the future. Is that wrong?

Garth, what you are saying is that if an umpire has a poor angle that it is due to HIS actions. That is not the case. The two-man system sucks when in C position. There are too many possibilities for first play in the infield that a BU may have to handle that it's very possible that a poor throw to 1b (should the play go there) results in a poor angle on a pulled foot.

It is not an umpire weakness.
It is a problem inherent in the 2 man system.
It is an exception, not the rule, when help is needed.

You will never make me believe that you have never had doubt in your career on making such a call after starting in C position. Therefore, to say that you would not seek help on such a call is stating that you feel it more important to sell your ability to guess (based on the available clues, as someone said) rather than opting to a partner who has an excellent angle to aid in getting the call correct.


Freix

[jicecone]

Jim, "Did he stay on the bag?" "No".

"Safe".

Defensive Manager: "You gotta to be kidding".

Plate Umpire. "Coach are you upset that we got the call right or that your first basemen didn't stay on the bag?"

His answer was garbled. Play on.

Same scenario has happened several times and I DID NOT, NOR WILL I entertain a discussion about it. Take control, especially when you get it right. IMO, that thats the only way.

[GarthB]

I was right. I regret re-entering a thread where very little listening and a lot of talking goes on.

Steve, at least do me the courtesy of not telling me what I am saying. Feel free to state how you choose to interpret what I am saying, if you'd like, but do not put words in my mouth. I will try one last time.

I am simply saying that I believe anytime an umpire needs to ask for help, he should look back to see what he could have done to not need that help. If you choose to believe that this is impossible, then let's just disagree and get on with our lives.

[Edited by GarthB on Apr 4th, 2003 at 12:31 AM]

[Whowefoolin]

Garth/Tee,

In what situation will you ask your partner for help then? Do you two umpire on an island and leave the other ump (either BU or PU) to fend for himself and make a two-man system literally two men using a system?

There is nearly a need for a little help at some time or the other. When would you ask for help, if ever?

The reason they use more than one umpire in certain levels is for the "help" that each gives.

[GarthB]

In what situation will you ask your partner for help then?

When I need it.

Do you two umpire on an island and leave the other ump (either BU or PU) to fend for himself and make a two-man system literally two men using a system?

Despite a minor in English and some study of rhetoric, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

There is nearly a need for a little help at some time or the other. When would you ask for help, if ever?

Asked and answered.

The reason they use more than one umpire in certain levels is for the "help" that each gives.

While I have read and heard numerous explanations of the two man system, that is one I have never seen written or heard said before.

[gsf23]

I don't think that anyone here can honestly say that they have always been in the right postion to make every call. Everyone, sooner or later is going to be out of position to make a call no matter how hard they work. It just happens. I've had a few instances in this very situation when I thought that I was in the right position, then at the last second, the 1st baseman makes some goofy stretch, or loses his balance as he is stretching and falls over, or whatever and now I cannot see the play and there is no time to react to get into a different spot. It happens to everyone.

I don't think anyone here is saying that you should get help ALL the time, I don't think anyone is saying that you should be lazy and never work to get into the right position. This is one instance where the mechanics of the two-man system allow you to get help from your partner.

All of you that are saying "well why not get help on every call then..steal of second, ask your partner if he tagged him or not." That is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard on this board.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by GarthB
I may regret re-entering this thread, but here goes.
(snip)

Garth, you're entirely too reasonable. Everything you say in your 3 Apr 2:20 PM post is right on. I understand that Tee or Roger as an UIC answer appropriately if asked; however, I also understand that they will never ask as a BU. Here's where we disagree. I don't think a base umpire with perfect execution of mechanics can see every pulled foot beyond a reasonable doubt.

Originally posted by rog
Coach: "Hey, blue how come it seems that you always ask for the other team ans never for ours?"

That specific comment would be ignored, but in general: "I saw that one all the way, coach."

P-Sz

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Apr 4th, 2003 at 09:19 AM]

[Jerry]

"That is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard on this board."

You haven't read a whole lot of the postings on this board, have you?

One thing on which we all agree . . . there are those umpires that feel more comfortable asking for help; and there are those that are more comfortable making their own judgements. After years of asking my partner for help, I've learned that his perception is really no better than my own; only a different view and angle. Now I'm very comfortable in making my own decisions and replying to coaches if they choose to disagree with my ruling.

Others may do however they feel more comfortable. If you think you need help, ask for it. If you think you can do it alone, do it. "Ain't no big deal." either way.

[kylejt]

I've been thinking(uh-oh), and lot of this comes down to who you're working with. Most of the folks I work with are top notch. If I'm taken out of position by the circumstances of the play, I can be assured, most of the time, that my partner has me covered. Dropped ball, pulled foot and missed tag are the only three I'll go for help on, and only if I can rely on my parnters positioning. If I'm working with a rookie or a sleeper, I'll make it and sell it myself.

I tested it out last night. Had a play almost like I quoted before. LL majors championship(first half)game. I'm in the C slot(for those who don't/won't work LL it's behind F6)and the ball was hit to F6 backing us both up. Long throw to F3 with a long stretch. I point to the PU(with my left hand, of course) and call "was he on the bag?". He comes back with "yes he was" and I bang him out. It took 2 seconds extra and took all doubt out of the call.

Now I wouldn't do that with everyone I might get paired with. But only ones where I knew the PU (my son this time)had me covered. Again, it all comes down to how good you and your partner are.

I feel sorry for those who just refuse to ask for help. You must work with a lot of dolts.

Kyle

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Jim Mills

On an evaluation I received in a game where I went for help, I was criticized, not congratulated, for it. The post-mortem was "If you have to go for help, o.k., but where you really want to be as an umpire is to NOT have to go for help, and nailing the call anyway. Getting it right with help is always a poor relation to getting it right on your own."

And I can imagine what your evaluation would have been if you had not gone for help, was therefore wrong in your "guess" about the foot (since you apparently weren't sure if F3 held the base), and most others with better angles, including your evaluators, were well aware of seeing F3 stretching off the base by perhaps 6 inches............

It's a Catch 22, and the I feel there's no dignity in making a call that can be obviously wrong to many when the correct answer is readily available if I choose to seek it. I can't comment on pro vs. amateur in a 2-man system since I've never seen a 2-man pro crew. Still, I doubt if pros have dignity in making an obviously wrong call. If not seeking help and booting the call means looking professional, then I prefer to look amateurish and get the call right for the very few times the situation arises.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Rog]

Re: ".....I understand that Tee or Roger as an UIC answer appropriately if asked; however, I also understand that they will never ask as a BU. Here's where we disagree. I don't think a base umpire with perfect execution of mechanics can see every pulled foot beyond a reasonable doubt."

Never say never!!!!! Yes, there are those "rare" occassions when I may go to my partner for assistance.
But just because a manager, coach, player, fan yells out to check with my partner does not dictate me doing so.
If I absoutely feel that my view was not clear enough to make a call then I will ask for help.
The reality of the situation is this - - -

Coach yells out: "Hey blue, you can't see from clear across the infield to make that call!!!"

Me: "Coach, the sun is about 92,897,000 mi away - and I can see it just fine from here!!!!!"

"Let's play....."