pulled foot at 1st - getting help

[chuckfan1]

Asked a long time umpire buddy about this, and told him about this topic. He said a couple things that stood out:
"Id rather achieve excellence over arrogance"
and...
"What am I looking up the baseline for if thats not one of the things Im gong to be looking for? I might as well be talking to the scorekeeper (said in jest of course).

And to Tim C: You need to keep your day job and dont even think about trying out at open mic night at the comedy club. You quite often seem to feel it neccessary to put sarcastic remarks, and ridiculous statements, that you know is not relevant.

[Tim C]

Personal attacks aside I guess you do deserve an answer:

Your "long time umpire" buddie's answer is correct. When Garth, Jerry, myself and others work the dish we are always in position to help our BU if he needs help.

We have all posted that several times . . . I guess you just missed that point.

Chuckfan what I need to make clear is that I believe in personal responsibility. I believe in spending more time working on your umpire skill to make the call rather than giving a bunch of "mooshue bullcrap" about feeling good about ones self and separating umpires into "old guys" and "progressive young'uns!"

Jim Porter and Steve Feix and very good writers. They are impassioned people . . . they have made a name for themselves on the internet by going the extra step to help young, emerging umpires understand what they beleive is the "right" way to umpire.

I come from a school that says "put political correctness aside" and really learn how to do something. I do not believe in teaching to the lowest common denominator.

I have no idea why you made a personal attack on me . . . but that is fine. I handle my own issues on the field or in life. I don't ask for help.

This arguement reminds me of an old Mary Tyler Moore episode where Ted Baxter enters the newsroom. Murray says, "Ted tonight's editorial is about traffic safety!"

Ted looks at him and says, "are we for it or against it?"

That is where some like to try to place this never ending argument. The real issue chuckfan is not about a one time request for help on a call . . . it is however, about the weakening of personal pride, commitment, and standing of umpires.

I don't care really what any other umpire does -- I do what I think is right and live with it.

Sorry that that offends you so much.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 1st, 2003 at 08:25 PM]

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Jerry
Using your mechanic opens the door to every coach, spectator, and player who's in a better position to see any close play to yell out, "Hey, ask your partner."

Certainly not. That's why the BU should ask for help before he makes a decision. Once he gets more information from his partner, the BU makes the call. This isn't a situation where play stops, the umpires confer, and then a decision is made. It is done right on the spot.

BU: "Was his foot on the base?"

PU: "No, it was not."

BU: "Safe."

Oh, and this is not my mechanic.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Jerry
I agree; it's a whole lot better to make a call, see the enemy coming at you in force, and then reconsider your judgement. What Jon didn't do . . . AND RIGHTFULLY SO . . . is to ask his partner(s) for help BEFORE THE FACT.

Oh, golly, I disagree with that. Sure, if you really need to, you can reverse your decision after the fact and after getting more information from your partner.

But it is infinitely better, rather than making a guess, to ask for help before you make a decision if at all possible. When done crisply and clearly, it looks damn professional. It really does. The only people who don't think it looks professional are the umpiring old-timers, and we aren't working games for them.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Jerry
Since you're of the philosophy that the PU [sic] is always in a better position to see the play, why not simply have him/her call it?

I did not say that the PU is in a better position to see the play. I said he was in better position to see a pulled foot than a BU starting from "C". How anyone can deny the truth of that, and the simple geometry involved, is beyond me. A BU could never gain a 90 degree angle on a pulled foot, and the PU starts from that angle! By golly, just be willing to go to the guy who can see the play rather than taking a guess and arrogantly sticking with it.

[Jerry]

Mr. Porter,
Who are the arrogant ones? Never in any of my replies did I resort to name-calling or pigeon-holing to make a point. Nor did I ever say that I'm "guessing" at a call. What I suggested to the youngsters, such as yourself evidently, is to read all the clues available to you rather than simply ask your partner for help. Whether you agree with how we "old timers" conduct ourselves is certainly your perogative, but to blindly dismiss our suggestions as "arrogance" serves no constructive purpose whatsoever.

Perhaps we should talk about the "home runs" that were really ground rule doubles, or foul balls hit over the fence . . . but were changed after discussion with our partner(s). In the scenario listed in this thread, all the BU was doing (it seemed) was to get confirmation from the PU for what he (the BU) probably saw, felt and thought anyhow. (i.e. F1 pulled his foot).

As Tim pointed out above, a lot of decision-making goes into our call . . . including the ramifications of timing if a call is reversed from "out" to "safe". None of us old-timers advocated making a call that we're not sure of. And certainly none of us (I don't think) are adverse to changing a call that was obviously in error. (Such as a ball being thrown into a dugout but we're thinking the fielder still has it.)

Peace,
Jerry

[Jerry]

Jim,
The following is from your recent posting:
"I did not say that the PU is in a better position to see the play. . . . By golly, just be willing to go to the guy who can see the play . . ."

I'm not entirely sure which one of us is confused. Please 'splain.

Jerry

[Bfair]

Mechanics has the PU looking for a pulled foot.
As Jim stated, it's because he's in the best position to see that part of the play. Evidently those doing the training know instances can develop where the need for that help can and does arise.

Is it an arrogant attitude for one to say that they are always ready as PU to offer that help to others when needed, but that they themselves as BU will never need it while in the field? I certainly find some arrogance in that attitude.

Hmmmm............
Perhaps you are just better than those doing the training ever imagined, or perhaps you'd prefer to risk blowing the call when help from the best angle is readily available to get the call right when in doubt but refuse to seek that help. Of course, if you have never had doubt on a pulled foot then you are certainly above and beyond most whom I know that umpire.

When help is properly obtained before the call is made (as explained by Jim), it shows great crew coordination in covering a difficult play from all angles. When the help is obtained per the mechanic Jim states, I've never seen it criticized, and often seen it complimented as to the crew coordination. It looks great when done right and is well respected in making the best effort to get the call right.


Freix

[Jerry]

Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve, Steve:
To say that all the calls I made have been correct is absolutely hilarious. What I said was, experienced umpires analyze all the "clues" and information at their disposal to make an informed and proper JUDGEMENT CALL! I can count on one hand, how many instances of a POSSIBLE pulled foot occured in my 20-years of officiating. And I've used the "crutch" of asking my partner too. (Didn't avoid arguments; simply deflected the shouting toward him instead). What we "old timers" are suggesting is that we all become more experienced and comfortable with making our own judgement calls, rather than relying on someone else who has a different angle or view of the play. Face it . . . we've got pulled feet and phantom tags at second base and no one questions it. We've got foul balls where our partners could probably be in a better position to view it, we've got balls that hit the ground and go over a fence and our partners may see it better than we. There are many, many calls where we could be "second guessed" by our partner, but we need to learn how to make our own calls. That was my only point.

Jerry

P.S. And I believe the proper mechanic under discussion is actually, "IF you need to go to your partner for help, do it before you make the call." I seriously doubt they're teaching "If you don't think you're going to make the correct call, ask your partner for help."

[Tim C]

I find that this has become a trade of mental masturbation between the "come on guys, getting the call right is the ONLY important thing" and the group that says "learn your trade and you will not have to ask."

When the great arbitor Bill Klem was asked "Have you ever missed a call?"

His answer made basball history when he answered, "In my HEART I have never missed a call!"

You would probably call him arrogant (we also know that Mr. Klem also refused to allow any umpire to work the dish when he was on the crew) by simply not understanding the way that "some officials" see their duty.

Have I ever missed a call? . . . I try to keep it to a "countable" few in every game.;-}

When did it become arrogant to know how to train, to spend the money to train, to work on your trade enough that you are in position to make calls? When did that become a bad thing?

In closing, the same schools that train for the PU to move into position to "help" on the swipe tag and pulled foot are the exact same schools that tell BU's "Don't EVER ask! Live with your own calls!"

We will never agree on this situation (just as Evans and Roder can't agree on the catching of a foul tip (ball) after a pitch has bounced to the hitter or Evans and Roder failing to agree on where a throw comes from to make the runners box rules active) and there is nothing wrong with that.

We "old" guys seem to have come the farthest in the discussion (saying we would at least "help") and we don't call you or your partners names (arrogant).

Steve we just believe that an umpire can get the angle, every time, and make the call. Pretty simple too me!

Tee

[Rog]

re: Using your mechanic opens the door to every coach, spectator, and player who's in a better position
to see any close play to yell out, "Hey, ask your partner."

Who is to say that they where in a better position; or, that they really saw the play?

I know this never happens; but, what if a manager, coach, player, fan (aka fanatical)
is just testing the umpire to see if they can draw the call -
or they flat out lied about seeing the play!

re: That's why the BU should ask for help before he makes a decision.

Why would an umpire ask for help on a call that they feel they can, and did make?

Never have I heard an umpire ask a player why they took a fastball right down the middle.
Nor have I ever heard an umpire ask a player why they tried to steal against a catcher with a cannon.
Nah, do your homework then take the call yourself.....

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Tim C
We "old" guys seem to have come the farthest in the discussion (saying we would at least "help") and we don't call you or your partners names (arrogant).

You're a piece of work, Tee. You took the first shots in this thread by stating that if we couldn't see a pulled foot at first by taking a simple step, lean, and peak, we should try officiating table tennis. That's big, fat arrogance my friend.

You also said that you can, "get your calls," if you understand the game and work at it, intimating that anyone who asks for help (which is a widely accepted mechanic nowadays) neither understands the game nor works at it. Once again, your arrogance shines through.

Arrogance. That's how umpires are seen in a general way by participants and spectators all over the world. They expect us to be arrogant because at one time arrogance was the way. Well, it's not anymore. The times they are a-changin'. Now, we train to understand our human limitations and overcome them, rather than arrogantly dismissing that they even exist. Today, we use the prescribed mechanics and we work as a team with our partners to overcome our limitations and maximum our coverage. We have heard the cries of those who employ us to adopt a more willing position to get the call right, and we heard.

Now, you can continue to umpire the old way. You'll still get jobs. After all, umpires are always needed. But will you be considered at the cutting edge of your profession and in the top 10% of your peers? Will you achieve the excellence many of us strive for? I don't think so.

[Tim C]

I am cocky, conceited and arrogant . . . and probably more than that.

I have also been in the top 10% of umpires (now, that is in the top 10% of the umpiring level that "I" wanted to be in -- i.e. umpires that work non-professional games) in my area.

Thanks for noticing.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 2nd, 2003 at 06:29 PM]

[gobama84]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim C
[B]I am cocky, conceited and arrogant . . . and probably more than that.

I have also been in the top 10% of umpires (now, that is in the top 10% of the umpiring level that "I" wanted to be in -- i.e. umpires that work non-professional games) in my area.

Thanks for noticing.

Tee

Me too Tim. We have 10 umpires and I'm one of them. That makes me in the top 10%. ;-)

[Edited by gobama84 on Apr 3rd, 2003 at 09:10 AM]

[gobama84]

Asking for Help and Changing Calls
by Tom Anstett

Too many times I see umpires make a call on a close play and the coach will come running out insisting on the umpires go get help from their partner. "Come on Blue, you need help on that, just ask your partner he had a better angle, he can help". Trying to be a nice guy, or perhaps being a little intimitated, you go to your partner for help.
MISTAKE!

First off, if you make a call, you are telling everyone that you saw the play, you've processed the information from the play and you made you're decision. If you weren't sure about something on the play and you don't have all the information you need to make your decision, you ask for help before you make your decision, remember it's still your call, you're only asking for help to get more information in order to make a decision. Don't throw your responsibilites on your partner.

If you ask for help just because the coach wants you to, you will be asked to go for help on every close play, by both coaches, all game long. If you constantly ask for help, you might as well leave the field, because your partner doesn't need you if he has to do your job also. Don't let the coach push you around, tell him or her that "I saw the play, I don't need any help, this is my call and the call stands" Whether your decision(judgement) was right or wrong, stick with it, if you change one call, the coaches will want you to change every call that they don't like. Also, when you change a call you have to deal with the other coach who now also has an argument with you.

Remember, you can change your own call in certain situations, but you must do it immediately. For example, if you make an out call, and your timing was to quick after the call you see the ball loose on the ground - change your own call immediately, get the play right. This is never going to look good, but you'll get the call right. Never, never make a call, think about for a while and then change it, you will loose all your credibility.