NF 2012 Rules Changes

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I predict some states will continue to require equipment checks.

Given the litigous world we live in, that seems likely, Rich. Consider the number of times I have had to tell coaches, "This helmet is broken, it's out.", only to hear, "Yeah, I don't know why he keeps bringing it out." and it is a no brainer. While many coaches are diligent and apologetic for equipment problems, some just see it as a nuisance. With the new bat and helmet rules for next year, it should be easier to do but we'll see.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

It looks like they are moving towards the game clock rule that is used by the NCAA. The one minute rule was always encouraged but making it a point of emphasis for 2012 suggests that they want a ball called as penalty for non-compliance, no allowances made. Hmmm?

I don't see how this is any different than the current 6-2-2c Exception:

The starting pitchers may warm up by using not more than eight throws, completed in one minute (timed from the first throw). When a pitcher is replaced during an inning or prior to an inning, the relief pitcher may not use more than eight throws. At the beginning of each subsequent inning, the pitcher may warm up by using not more than five throws, completed in one minute (timed from the third out of the previous half-inning) (3-1-2). In either case, the umpire-in-chief may authorize more throws because of an injury or inclement weather.

The only difference is that relief pitchers brought in during an inning have one minute as well (before, it just mentioned 8 pitches). I don't see anything different.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I don't see how this is any different than the current 6-2-2c Exception:



The only difference is that relief pitchers brought in during an inning have one minute as well (before, it just mentioned 8 pitches). I don't see anything different.

I don't see a substantive difference, agreed, but I've taken all of the NCAA practices with the exception of using a stopwatch into my NFHS games and used them to keep things moving as well as possible. I'd be thrilled to add the watch.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Actually on the ABUA website I asked:

"If you could change ONE NFHS Rule what would it be?"

The big winner was "no more checking hats and bats!"

I made the post as a little hint to what was coming down the line.

T

I wonder if South Carolina will continue to check them, though. They seem to be 20 years behind any substantive rule change.

[rcaverly]

I am pleased that NFHS made the rule change. I am anxious to see it in the book with some accompanying case plays. The devil will be found in the details. It's still the NFHS, after all.

After playing and supposedly having crews checking equipment during 30-some regular and post-season games this year, plus 30-or-so more games in summer-ball played under the NFHS code, I still found an illegal bat at last night’s game, plus a cracked helmet (same team...go figure.)

The team’s summertime coach was surprised.

I would like to see an automatic ejection of the head coach as the penalty for discovering that his team used illegal equipment during a game after having declared at the pre-game conference that his team's, "... players are legally and properly equipped."

Yeah, like that'll ever happen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Given the litigous world we live in, that seems likely, Rich. Consider the number of times I have had to tell coaches, "This helmet is broken, it's out.", only to hear, "Yeah, I don't know why he keeps bringing it out." and it is a no brainer. While many coaches are diligent and apologetic for equipment problems, some just see it as a nuisance. With the new bat and helmet rules for next year, it should be easier to do but we'll see.

I agree with Rich that some states will require this anyway. But like in football that is a much more violent sport and a sport that has much more required equipment and we do not go to every helmet and check those on a football team personally. So it might be a litigious society, but there are other areas where the officials never check this equipment other than a spot check and I cannot think of a single time someone got in big legal trouble if something went wrong. This puts the responsibly squarely on the coaches since they agree to what is to be used anyway. But then again the penalty for every kid that uses equipment that is illegal can go towards a coach being ejected. So the penalty is much harsher where in baseball we only can give an out or not use the equipment based on when it is discovered.

Peace

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I agree with Rich that some states will require this anyway. But like in football that is a much more violent sport and a sport that has much more required equipment and we do not go to every helmet and check those on a football team personally. So it might be a litigious society, but there are other areas where the officials never check this equipment other than a spot check and I cannot think of a single time someone got in big legal trouble if something went wrong. This puts the responsibly squarely on the coaches since they agree to what is to be used anyway. But then again the penalty for every kid that uses equipment that is illegal can go towards a coach being ejected. So the penalty is much harsher where in baseball we only can give an out or not use the equipment based on when it is discovered.

Peace

Were you ever required to inspect player equipment before football games? Since that answer is 'no', you are again attempting to compare things that aren't equal.

In high school baseball, for a number of years now, the onus for player safety has been firmly on the shoulders of the umpire(s). The 2012 rule change still provides for the umpires to inspect gear if the coach asks. Umpires are no longer required to do a pre-game check, that is all the rule states. We must ask for confirmation of the conditions but no penalty is mentioned.

As I and others have mentioned, the questions we ask of coaches at the plate meeting remain the same. This year I had players walk into the box wearing a broken helmet (one that I had removed pre-game), using an illegal bat (-10!) and wearing jewelry (too many times) AFTER THE COACH HAD STATED THAT ALL PLAYERS ARE PROPERLY EQUIPPED. The onus is still upon us. Coaches just want to get the game going and we'll agree with almost everything we ask of them. This may have been conceived with good intentions but unless some teeth are added it is a waste of ink.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I don't see how this is any different than the current 6-2-2c Exception:



The only difference is that relief pitchers brought in during an inning have one minute as well (before, it just mentioned 8 pitches). I don't see anything different.

That was my point. The only thing they are doing is EMPHASIZING the one minute time period. This is undoubtedly a precursor to an NCAA-like rule. Stopwatches will be a necessity or you will find some coaches hooting for a penalty at 61 seconds and umpires ill prepared to say that the time hasn't expired yet.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Were you ever required to inspect player equipment before football games? Since that answer is 'no', you are again attempting to compare things that aren't equal.

We are to review the equipment before the game and ask the coach the same things (in all NF sports BTW). So no it is not a complete unequal thing when the NF tends to review rules changes with other committees. For example the concussion language is the same language used in other sports. The old baseball rule was just silly to have when in other sports where the equipment is much more dangerous to the players we only ask the coach "Are your players properly and legally equip?" And if we discovered an illegal item we removed it in accordance to those specific sport's rules. A helmet in baseball rarely comes into play in a baseball game compared to football where every play might have some head contact.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

In high school baseball, for a number of years now, the onus for player safety has been firmly on the shoulders of the umpire(s). The 2012 rule change still provides for the umpires to inspect gear if the coach asks. Umpires are no longer required to do a pre-game check, that is all the rule states. We must ask for confirmation of the conditions but no penalty is mentioned.

I disagree when you said it was really on us. All we did was check before the game. During the game coaches had more knowledge what their players used or did not use more than us. And considering I have never had a single opposing coach ask to check the legality of the bat or helmet, this was a silly practices. We would just check before the game and unless something changed we would not know necessarily that they were using illegal equipment like a cracked helmet unless we spot checked it and saw the crack ourselves.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As I and others have mentioned, the questions we ask of coaches at the plate meeting remain the same. This year I had players walk into the box wearing a broken helmet (one that I had removed pre-game), using an illegal bat (-10!) and wearing jewelry (too many times) AFTER THE COACH HAD STATED THAT ALL PLAYERS ARE PROPERLY EQUIPPED. The onus is still upon us. Coaches just want to get the game going and we'll agree with almost everything we ask of them. This may have been conceived with good intentions but unless some teeth are added it is a waste of ink.

And the reason I mentioned football is the fact that is the same exact procedure that is used in that sport in the pre-game meeting that is also required with the coaches before the game. The difference is that we do not bring the coaches together to ask in the same meeting, but we still ask. And we do the same thing in basketball and I cannot think of a single other sport were the NF creates the rules for a particular sport (or in our state for that matter) that does not have the officials penalize or address illegal equipment after that meeting. This new baseball rule is more in line with other sports as if you work other sports you will realize they like to use something in one sport that works and require it in other sports. Mary Struckoff said as much when they consider new rules and she is a former IHSA Administrator and she is the current Rules Editor for Basketball as well as the NCAA Supervisor of Officials for NCAA Women's Basketball. That is why all this mess with the Appropriate Medical Professional was used in every single sport and the change in what how we remove players for a possible concussion. That is not just a baseball rule; it is a football, basketball, soccer, softball and volleyball rule. And soon to be an Illinois state law as to how we handle these things as well. This just puts baseball in the same category with other sports.

Peace

[scarolinablue]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I wonder if South Carolina will continue to check them, though. They seem to be 20 years behind any substantive rule change.

Not on this one, my friend. Not on this one...

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are to review the equipment before the game and ask the coach the same things (in all NF sports BTW). So no it is not a complete unequal thing when the NF tends to review rules changes with other committees.

Yes, Jeff, it is. They are unequal - 'complete' was not a word I used.

You are not required to check EVERY football helmet on every player, are you? In baseball, EVERY helmet must be checked by the umpire pre-game. Every bat was to be checked as well.

For example the concussion language is the same language used in other sports. The old baseball rule was just silly to have when in other sports where the equipment is much more dangerous to the players we only ask the coach "Are your players properly and legally equip?"

Concussions? Huh? I don't mention them at my plate conferences. If you do, it is unnecessary. It is not relevant to our discussion though.

As for the "Are your players properly and legally equipped?", we were REQUIRED to ask that for many years and still are.

And if we discovered an illegal item we removed it in accordance to those specific sport's rules. A helmet in baseball rarely comes into play in a baseball game compared to football where every play might have some head contact.

Sigh. It is pointless to argue with you. There is a reason why helmets are employed in baseball. Clearly you believe otherwise.

I disagree when you said it was really on us. All we did was check before the game. During the game coaches had more knowledge what their players used or did not use more than us.

No, Jeff, you are wrong.

We were REQUIRED to see that players were compliant with safety standards. The rule book mandated it and our interpretation meetings stressed the need to do this check. The responsibility was entirely ours.

Once a game starts, most coaches are not aware of what players use for equipment. I see every batter when he steps into the box. I can see his helmet, bat and if he is wearing anything illegal. Can't you?

And considering I have never had a single opposing coach ask to check the legality of the bat or helmet, this was a silly practices. We would just check before the game and unless something changed we would not know necessarily that they were using illegal equipment like a cracked helmet unless we spot checked it and saw the crack ourselves.

I suggest you read up on why we checked bats. Coaches didn't know, care or bother. There are numerous articles online about illegal bats being used this year and what happened.

I have had a couple coaches ask me to check bats that were involved in games. One was the -10 I mentioned in an earlier post. Maybe you have heard of Phil Garner, Chris Sabo, Albert Belle, Wilton Guerrero, George Brett, Sammy Sosa or Robin Ventura using illegal bats. I know I have.

And the reason I mentioned football is the fact that is the same exact procedure that is used in that sport in the pre-game meeting that is also required with the coaches before the game. The difference is that we do not bring the coaches together to ask in the same meeting, but we still ask.

No. You simply showed why the new rule will be useless. In football, all you do is ask for a coach to confirm that his players are compliant. You did not physically inspect their equipment, as we were required to do by the rules in baseball. Jeff, you are comparing unequal things.

This new baseball rule is more in line with other sports as if you work other sports you will realize they like to use something in one sport that works and require it in other sports.

edited for brevity

I could care less about basketball, name dropping or the other non-sequitors you employ. The fact remains that the new rule is useless in its present form. Why ask a coach to confirm player equipment if there is no penalty involved for him/her? Why not simply call the game without the inquiry since they won't have consequences? That is the way we officiate in collegiate and OBR ruled ball. Asking a question of a coach that is unnecessary is pointless.

[zm1283]

Isn't there an Illinois forum you two can go to since you derail every thread on this board with this nonsense?

[MrUmpire]

Thank God for the ignore feature. You can still see the poster's name, but are spared their posts.

Some, however, don't take to being ignored too well. The last poster I added to ignore then proceeded to PM me. I asked him to stop. He PM'd me again. I asked again that he stop. He PM'd me a third time. Finally I had to disable the PM feature to get rid of him.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Yes, Jeff, it is. They are unequal - 'complete' was not a word I used.

You are not required to check EVERY football helmet on every player, are you? In baseball, EVERY helmet must be checked by the umpire pre-game. Every bat was to be checked as well.

Every baseball helmet used to have to be checked.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Concussions? Huh? I don't mention them at my plate conferences. If you do, it is unnecessary. It is not relevant to our discussion though.

I did not say anything about mentioning concussions. I said that the rules on what we ask the coaches are the same and that the concussion rules are the same amongst many NF sports.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

As for the "Are your players properly and legally equipped?", we were REQUIRED to ask that for many years and still are.

So has every other sport.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Sigh. It is pointless to argue with you. There is a reason why helmets are employed in baseball. Clearly you believe otherwise.

This was my post that I started. No one is arguing with you at all, at least I am not. Just pointing out some facts.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No, Jeff, you are wrong.

We were REQUIRED to see that players were compliant with safety standards. The rule book mandated it and our interpretation meetings stressed the need to do this check. The responsibility was entirely ours.

I am not wrong about anything, you just disagree which is fine with me. And I thought you did not do HS baseball anymore, but somehow you know the role of a HS official and you only do one sport to my knowledge. I find that kind of interesting.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Once a game starts, most coaches are not aware of what players use for equipment. I see every batter when he steps into the box. I can see his helmet, bat and if he is wearing anything illegal. Can't you?

If they are unaware then they are the dumbest coaches I have ever been around if other sports who do not have some of the dealings with their players as other sports and they have no idea what one player uses at one time. At least in baseball there can only be one bat used at a time and you are telling me a coach is clueless to what they use? Really?

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I suggest you read up on why we checked bats. Coaches didn't know, care or bother. There are numerous articles online about illegal bats being used this year and what happened.

Again, if they did not know, then coaches in baseball are the dumbest coaches around. Because when in a football game the coaches are asking off the bat if an eye shield can be used and the football team in many cases triples or quadruples the number of kids that play baseball, those are the weakest excuses I have ever heard for passing the buck. We cannot have a coach in football that does not know about the cleats they are using and a baseball coach cannot figure out what bat his player uses on any given time. And he has to worry about one person at a time?

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I have had a couple coaches ask me to check bats that were involved in games. One was the -10 I mentioned in an earlier post. Maybe you have heard of Phil Garner, Chris Sabo, Albert Belle, Wilton Guerrero, George Brett, Sammy Sosa or Robin Ventura using illegal bats. I know I have.

You are really comparing the pros to HS programs? Great comparison. Maybe at the pro level they also require the umpires to x-ray every bat too.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

No. You simply showed why the new rule will be useless. In football, all you do is ask for a coach to confirm that his players are compliant. You did not physically inspect their equipment, as we were required to do by the rules in baseball. Jeff, you are comparing unequal things.

I never said that we do not check, I said we do not sit around and go look to make sure every helmet has a sticker. And not the baseball rule is in line with other sports that also do not check any equipment. So what is your point? Now what they do in any other sport, baseball has to do.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I could care less about basketball, name dropping or the other non-sequitors you employ. The fact remains that the new rule is useless in its present form. Why ask a coach to confirm player equipment if there is no penalty involved for him/her? Why not simply call the game without the inquiry since they won't have consequences? That is the way we officiate in collegiate and OBR ruled ball. Asking a question of a coach that is unnecessary is pointless.

Well here is the thing. I really do not give a crap what you care about or who I referenced. I referenced the people that create the rules and referenced the philosophy that they employ. And I have been here a lot longer than you and people for years talk about other sports and will continue to do so in these conversations. And they will really do it when rules changes come up because they often reflect other sports (like the concussion rule last year that was changed). And if you think that this rule did not come with others saying "Why does baseball do something that other sports do not have to do?" Then you are not using much common sense. Also college got rid of this rule for the very same reason. It was silly to make umpires check something that the coaches should know more about. Now you can disagree, but the rule was changed for some reason. And if they felt that the umpires were that to be held ultimately responsible then they would keep up this practice. Again, baseball is one of the safer sports as it relates to what bats can or cannot do. The main player that is in any real danger from a bat is the pitcher (which is why all these bat changes were ultimately made to protect). If they really wanted to worry about safety of all the player they could change the ball to the safer kind.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Isn't there an Illinois forum you two can go to since you derail every thread on this board with this nonsense?

Dude, I started the damn thread. If you do not like the conversation, then go somewhere else. No one is asking you to care what is said. I do not read all the crap here I do not like and I certainly do not complain about it. Don't read and you will be happier. I do not read most of the crap here and I do not need a little button to tell me what to ignore.

Peace