Home run - missed the plate!!

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Brown said he wasn't sure. The Phillies replay showed the heel hitting the base. If it's that inconclusive, it's a terrible call. That's the point I've been trying to make in this thread.

The following is from a Philly report on the game:

Brown says gaffe cost Phillies in extra-inning loss

“I did not,” Brown said when asked if he touched the base. “I just got to go back and take the double. I don’t know what I was thinking about there – too aggressive, I guess. Right there it cost us the game. You live and learn. That’s all I can say.”

Again, it was far from a terrible call. It turns out the runner confirmed it was the right call. The umpire looked to be in perfect position to call it. Charley Manual handled his brief discussion with dignity as did the ump (?Charley Relliford?) and the game went on without all the show and bluster we usually get. Imagine that!

[Larry1953]

Sorry, the tip of the cap goes to Kerwin Danley who was U2.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

The following is from a Philly report on the game:

Brown says gaffe cost Phillies in extra-inning loss

“I did not,” Brown said when asked if he touched the base. “I just got to go back and take the double. I don’t know what I was thinking about there – too aggressive, I guess. Right there it cost us the game. You live and learn. That’s all I can say.”

Again, it was far from a terrible call. It turns out the runner confirmed it was the right call. The umpire looked to be in perfect position to call it. Charley Manual handled his brief discussion with dignity as did the ump (?Charley Relliford?) and the game went on without all the show and bluster we usually get. Imagine that!

"I was trying to go so fast, all I was thinking was getting to third," Brown said. "I might have touched it with my heel, but I couldn't tell. I think I missed it, though. It cost us the game."

He *did* touch it with his heel. It was a brutal call to make in that situation. You don't guess at a missed base and you certainly don't take the word of a player over a replay that clearly shows the heel hitting the back side of the base, regardless of what the homer announcers say. There is no "right" way to touch a base, either.

MLB.com Gameday | MLB.com: Gameday

The replay isn't here, either. The good replay was from the Phillies broadcast and they showed it over and over and over again. And because Danley was on the back side of the base and had to look over the base, he guessed at the miss. I don't get why anyone would choose the dirty end of that stick.

[Larry1953]

I think there is a right way to leg out a triple. Doesn't it make sense to touch second on the inside corner with your right foot? Brown messed up his running cadence by looking at the ball roll to the wall. He had the entire play directly in front of him for the 90 feet from first to second to watch it all he wanted. The right way to leg out a triple is to make a good, strong turn at second and pick up your third base coach. Since Brown didn't, he lost his proper stride where the best he could do was to catch the bag with his left heel. The rear spike on your heel catching on the bag could easily turn an ankle or cause you to trip and fall. Live and learn indeed.

Brutal call? It came in the 6th inning of a game where the Phillies blew leads of 4-0 and 5-3. It's not like it was a walk-off balk or a walk-off missed call at the plate.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

I think there is a right way to leg out a triple. Doesn't it make sense to touch second on the inside corner with your right foot? Brown messed up his running cadence by looking at the ball roll to the wall. He had the entire play directly in front of him for the 90 feet from first to second to watch it all he wanted. The right way to leg out a triple is to make a good, strong turn at second and pick up your third base coach. Since Brown didn't, he lost his proper stride where the best he could do was to catch the bag with his left heel. The rear spike on your heel catching on the bag could easily turn an ankle or cause you to trip and fall. Live and learn indeed.

Brutal call? It came in the 6th inning of a game where the Phillies blew leads of 4-0 and 5-3. It's not like it was a walk-off balk or a walk-off missed call at the plate.

From a coaching perspective, sure. From an umpiring perspective, I don't care if he crawls on his belly and touches the bag with his tongue as he goes by.

The next batter hit a home run. The call took a run off the board.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

From a coaching perspective, sure. From an umpiring perspective, I don't care if he crawls on his belly and touches the bag with his tongue as he goes by.

The next batter hit a home run. The call took a run off the board.

I guess from an umpiring perspective, Danley was just supposed to assume that Brown might have brushed the "wrong" side of the bag when he screwed up his stride and stagger-stepped across the bag, leaving even the runner unsure if he touched it (to one account) and admitting that he missed it in another.

As an aside, I've never been one to subscribe to the "die are cast" concept of baseball causality of outcome. Yeah, I know it is done with earned runs and all, but that's not the way life is. So who is to say that Mayberry, with one out and R3 isn't called on to put on a squeeze - and he pops up into a DP and the Phillies "lose" a run? The HR was not a given - the pitcher goes from the stretch instead of the windup, chooses a different pitch and location; the batter has a different stroke in a sac fly situation versus bases empty. If you can't "assume the double play" when it comes to officially scoring errors, you surely can't assume a HR in an entirely different matrix.

[MD Longhorn]

I'm in agreement with those who say that if you don't KNOW he missed the base, then he didn't miss it. However, in the OP, the umpire KNEW he stepped on black. All comments about dirt aside - if you KNOW the player stepped only on black - are some of you really saying you'll not allow the appeal - and worse (apparently) eject the coach for arguing when YOU are the one that is wrong? That's awful. It's not game management. It's cheating.

Seems to me it's pretty easy for a guy to step on home plate during a dead ball - we shouldn't reward him for being lazy about it and missing, however narrowly.

[Tim C]

Mike:

Many years ago on this same site PapaC brought up this exact situation.

Carl's take was "what advantage was gained by the batter when on an "over the wall" home run was hit when he "just missed" touching the plate."

The same arguements were given then as now.

When I was first taught umpiring I was taught "the first pitch of the game is ALWAYS a strike".

Was it -- of course not -- but I did miss a few "first pitches."

To say an umpiring is a "cheat" because of this specific situation is unfair.

Some of us have a "different" sensibility to the game and how it is officiated.

BTW, I have never been called a "cheat" before . . . I can now add that to my list.

T

[MD Longhorn]

I would note that I did not call you, specifically, anything.

The action, however, of seeing one thing and ruling that you didn't see it is ... well, there's no other word for it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I would note that I did not call you, specifically, anything.

The action, however, of seeing one thing and ruling that you didn't see it is ... well, there's no other word for it.

That's not what I'm ruling, Mike. If the plate is properly buried, then no black is available to be stepped on, and this problem doesn't arise. If black is visible, I'm not holding the runner responsible for flaws in the field: everything that can be stepped on is the plate, so if he steps on any of it he's good.

To me this is no different from when 2B comes loose when R1 slides in hard but safely, and the base ends up in left field, 5 feet from the runner. But you're banging that runner out because he's not touching the base, right? Anything else would be cheating.

[Tim C]

Mike we obviously have different values.

Best to you,

T

[Larry1953]

RichMSN, in response to your edit, I think Danley was in the proper position to watch where a runner *should* be expected to touch the bag. It is hard to fault him for not being on the other side so he could see Brown's heel graze the third base side of the bag which hardly ever happens. And I don't think a base height of what, 2 inches, is that much of an obstacle to peer over from his vantage point.