"Last time by" confusion

[jicecone]

I might be misunderstanding the question here but, unless the ball becomes immeadiately dead there is not going to be a call/appeal until playing action has stopped, for a "last time by" infraction. By that time the runners intent would have been defined. "Attempt does not come into play here.

How can the runner be called out on appeal when the ball was dropped?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jicecone

How can the runner be called out on appeal when the ball was dropped?

For missing the base on the last time by. It is a missed base appeal, not a retouch appeal, so catch/no catch does not enter the picture.

[greymule]

I agree with mbyron. A few steps toward 2B doesn't constitute "missing" 3B. If he gets close to 2B, you have a much better case.

Even then, we have the legal "skunk in the outfield" play and other examples of how a runner can be far away from the basepaths and not be "missing" anything. If you take baserunning weirdness to a ridiculous extreme, you enter a theoretical area in which there's virtually no "case law." What if a batter lines a shot that shoots past the outfielders and rolls 600 feet on an open field. He sees that the outfielders aren't even chasing the ball, so he runs all over the infield and outfield as he touches the bases in order and the defense stands still watching him and plotting their revenge? Did the BR "miss" a base in all that nonsense?

Batter stretches a single into a double but after he slides into 2B thinks he's been put out. Meanwhile, the throw to 2B has kicked off into a remote corner of foul territory. The runner trots toward his dugout, crosses the 1B line, and then sprints directly back to 2B (or even to 3B) at the entreaties of his teammates. Did he "miss" 1B in the process? I'd say no.

[bob jenkins]

I'm going to add: IMO, (and don't take this literally) the purpose of the "touch every base" rule (and, thus, the LTB), is to make sure the runner runs 360' to score, and doesn't gain an advantage along the way. It's not to give the defense an easy out for a mis-step or two along the way.

So, in the OP, if R2 got an advantage by what he did, then call the out. Otherwise, call it an ambling approach to the plate.

And, yes, that gets back to the last sentence in the OP -- "just a play you gotta bear down and umpire"

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So, in the OP, if R2 got an advantage by what he did, then call the out. Otherwise, call it an ambling approach to the plate.

That's better than what I said. It's not so much where he was or what he was trying to do: if he gained an advantage from missing a base the last time by, then he's out on proper appeal.

[MD Longhorn]

I believe I'd mentally draw a line between 3rd and 1st base. If this rambling runner crossed that line such that he's closer to 2nd than home ... then in my mind he's "passed" 3rd base and on his way to 2nd. A couple of steps as in the OP? I've got nothing.

[DG]

Are you saying the ball was dropped, no catch? If so I don't see the point of question, there is no need to return and R2 running in in a little circle near home plate is irrelevant. You say he realized his gaffe, what gaffe if there was no catch? If there was a catch then last time by is irrelevant because he would have need go back to 2b to touch. Confusing, certainly.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by mbyron

For missing the base on the last time by. It is a missed base appeal, not a retouch appeal, so catch/no catch does not enter the picture.

That was my point. He didn't miss the base on the last time by and as Ozzy has already implied, could have run circles around the mound then head for second, get two steps away turn touch third and go back to second. I know it is far fetched but besides reality, there no rule against it. Until he retouches second, there is no LTB infraction to consider. Not theoritically speaking of course.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jicecone

That was my point. He didn't miss the base on the last time by and as Ozzy has already implied, could have run circles around the mound then head for second, get two steps away turn touch third and go back to second. I know it is far fetched but besides reality, there no rule against it. Until he retouches second, there is no LTB infraction to consider. Not theoritically speaking of course.

Ah, interesting interp. I don't agree, but it's interesting!

Different case: R1 stealing on the pitch, batter hits the ball high and deep to left-center. R1 touches 2B and sees F7 settle under the ball. He retreats past 2B, missing it, and heads to "halfway" between 1B and 2B. F7 then drops the ball. R1 now proceeds past 2B, missing the base again, and rolls into 3B. The defense appeals the missed base.

You're ruling "safe" on the appeal, because he just took a circuitous route to 3B?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

That was my point. He didn't miss the base on the last time by and as Ozzy has already implied, could have run circles around the mound then head for second, get two steps away turn touch third and go back to second. I know it is far fetched but besides reality, there no rule against it. Until he retouches second, there is no LTB infraction to consider. Not theoritically speaking of course.

I think that's quite a stretch. Yes, a runner can run wherever he wants... but say in the OP that he retreated almost all the way to 2nd before realizing it was not caught, and then ran across the mound to score... you're not calling this a miss (2 really) of third base?

Like I said above, I'm not calling this a "return to 2nd" and thus a miss of 3rd unless he is actually closer to 2nd than home.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

.. but say in the OP that he retreated almost all the way to 2nd before realizing it was not caught, and then ran across the mound to score... you're not calling this a miss (2 really) of third base?

By the rules, I don't have to. But, I agree sometimes you just have to umpire

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by jicecone

By the rules, I don't have to.

Even if they appeal it? That doesn't qualify as a gross miss to you?

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Even if they appeal it? That doesn't qualify as a gross miss to you?

What are they going to appeal? Give me a reference of the definition of "gross miss." by rule. The ball was not caught, therefore there was no requirement to return to second. Furthermore he didn't tag second again so he doesn't have to tag third again. He didn't miss (3b). Did he go out of the (baseline) traveling from third to home? Not by rule.

8-2-6l -Last Time By. "If a runner correctly touches a base that was missed either in advancing or returning, the last time he was by the base, that last touch corrects any previous baserunning infraction." He didn't miss 3b nor did he go by or have to go by 3b.

You have to use your imagination here because, you just aint going to see it happen. EVER