Feinting to First

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Coach read 801d comment again slowly this time.....

Rule 8.01(d) Comment: A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.

So, if a dropped ball doesn't cross the line, it's a balk, with runners on. If it crosses the line, it's a ball. Can't make it any clearer than that.

The second sentence is classifying "both" of the scenerios listed in the first sentence (The ball and no pitch). Instead of it being called a no pitch if it doesn't cross the line it is called a balk.

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

You might want to read it slowly. The second sentence is classifying "both" of the scenerios listed in the first sentence (The ball and no pitch). Instead of it being called a no pitch if it doesn't cross the line it is called a balk.

Let me try this one more time. The second ISN'T classifying "both". It's telling you that a ball that slips out of a pitcher's hand and crosses the foul line is a ball, not a balk. It is also telling you that a pitch/slip out of a pitchers hand with no runners on base is a no pitch, should it not cross a foul line. The last portion is telling you that if the ball doesn't cross the foul lines and there are runners on base, it's a balk. Just as Rich and other's have tried to tell you. But were just umpires here, not coaches, so also check out the MLBUM, JEA, Jaksa/Roder as well as BRD, all cover this particular play. Because to fully comprehend the rules of baseball, you need to reference the above mentioned manuals, in order to be a competent umpire and or understand the rules of baseball.

[Coach Dykhoff]

So this rule has nothing to do with it?

=====

MLB RULEBOOK

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;

=====

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

So this rule has nothing to do with it?

=====

MLB RULEBOOK

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;

=====

If you can produce one single piece of documented evidence of a dropped, not thrown, ball rolling into foul territory from the pitching rubber, I will continue this ridiculous discussion. Perhaps the rule needs to be rewritten so it matches 8.01(d), the other poorly worded rule.

As was stated, we don't just go by the rule book for decisions. This is at all levels of baseball, including professional. We as umpires use all the alphabet soup-named manuals that were already mentioned, which include casebook plays and official interpretations by the governing powers at each level of baseball.

[Coach Dykhoff]

Gotcha

[Coach Dykhoff]

It seems like you can't prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong with documentation. It apprears that the two sections of the rule contridict each other. Agree to disagree.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

It seems like you can't prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong with documentation. It apprears that the two sections of the rule contridict each other. Agree to disagree.

As neither a coach nor umpire, I'll side with the umpire when the two disagree.

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

It seems like you can't prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong with documentation. It apprears that the two sections of the rule contridict each other. Agree to disagree.

It's not as much as proving one side wrong over the other, it's a matter of reading a complete rule, putting all it's pieces together and applying it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

It seems like you can't prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong with documentation. It apprears that the two sections of the rule contridict each other. Agree to disagree.

No, it's not agree to disagree. You think that this sentence has NEVER been discussed at the various clinics across the country.

Quick question - which of you has been to an umpiring clinic? This isn't exactly the only semi-ambiguous spot (or awful grammar, etc) in the rulebook. This is one of the things we cover at clinics. Feel free to hold on to your incorrect interp, since you've not been to one. Any umpire who has will call this right. You'll still think he's wrong because you've not discussed this with the people who make such interpretations. It's not agree to disagree - you are being told the correct answer, so it's really you insisting on being right in the face of the correct answer.

[Coach Dykhoff]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

It seems like you can't prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong with documentation. It apprears that the two sections of the rule contridict each other. Agree to disagree.

This was said.

It was good enough for me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

So this rule has nothing to do with it?

=====

MLB RULEBOOK

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;

=====

My understanding (and I might be wrong):

A "Dropped" ball will never cross the foul line. So, 8.05(k) is correct.

A "Slipped Pitch" might or might not cross the foul line. If it does, it's a ball; if it doesn't it's either "no pitch" or "balk" depending on runners. so, 8.01(d) CMT is correct.

So, the rules don't conflict (although they could be clearer).

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Coach Dykhoff

You might want to read it slowly. The second sentence is classifying "both" of the scenerios listed in the first sentence (The ball and no pitch). Instead of it being called a no pitch if it doesn't cross the line it is called a balk.

This is a grammatical error in the rules. With runners on, if the dropped ball crosses the foul line, it is a ball, not a balk. Otherwise, it's a balk. With no runners, it is a ball if it crosses the foul line, and No Pitch if it doesn't. That's the rule.

Jim Evans has identified over 235 errors in the rulebook, and not all of them have been fixed yet.