Unsafe catcher

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

One of the first things I tell new umpires is to be Harry Carey out there - see the play and tell everyone what happened.

I don't know if Harry Carey is the best example to use.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It doesn't sound as if you know what preventive officiating is.

Personally, it sounds more to me that some don't understand the role of an umpire.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dileonardoja

The problem with this board is that we some umpires that do 10U baseball and other that can't remember there last JV game. Granted at the Varsity level and up there is rarely a need to say anything (and you shouldn't) because these acts of ignorance don't occur very often and the players know better. But pre-shaving age kids are a different story. Many have not learned what to do and many are poorly coached. I do NOT want to coach them but I want to get through the game with as few problem as possible so if I tell a 13 year old catcher to get out of the baseline while the ball is being fumbled out in the field and runner is barreling home, I clearly don't see that as OOO.

Well said. You are correct that for those of us who no longer work baseball below varsity level sometimes forget what little guys do out there. I am only speaking to baseball umpiring at varsity and above. While others may disagree and feel the need to involve themselves in the game, I would rather not and it has served me well for thirty plus years. Long ago, I was taught the 'don't do that' method of umpiring. It still has it's place but I don't believe on fields where varsity level and above play ball. Penalize what they do (or don't do as the case may be).

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Harry Carey is a legend in Chicago. Calling games for the Sox and Cubs endeared him to almost every baseball fan around this area. While no longer with us, his message of waiting and speaking still resonates here. Feel free to use the beloved commentator of your choice, the analogy works well. Umpires simply see what happens and then tell the world.

[pastordoug]

While there is a difference between levels of players (Varsity vs 13U) it has been my experiance that any form of appeared 'coaching" should be avoid. By making that interference or obstruction call imo will benefit them in the long run by 1. helping the coach understand the rules and 2. player/runner won't be doing that again.... There seems to be a fine line some make between coaching and preventive umpiring. I think the line is clear. Just call the game and leave ALL the coaching to the coaches.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It doesn't sound as if you know what preventive officiating is.

Sounds like you should be coaching.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by dileonardoja

The problem with this board is that we some umpires that do 10U baseball and other that can't remember there last JV game. Granted at the Varsity level and up there is rarely a need to say anything (and you shouldn't) because these acts of ignorance don't occur very often and the players know better. But pre-shaving age kids are a different story. Many have not learned what to do and many are poorly coached. I do NOT want to coach them but I want to get through the game with as few problem as possible so if I tell a 13 year old catcher to get out of the baseline while the ball is being fumbled out in the field and runner is barreling home, I clearly don't see that as OOO.

Age matters. You have a good point.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I don't know if Harry Carey is the best example to use.

+1

I still remember... "IT MIGHT BE!!!! ... IT COULD BE!!!!!!!! IT'S caught. By the shortstop."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

While there is a difference between levels of players (Varsity vs 13U) it has been my experiance that any form of appeared 'coaching" should be avoid. By making that interference or obstruction call imo will benefit them in the long run by 1. helping the coach understand the rules and 2. player/runner won't be doing that again.... There seems to be a fine line some make between coaching and preventive umpiring. I think the line is clear. Just call the game and leave ALL the coaching to the coaches.

If the coach is paid, he's paid to coach... not us.
If the coach is volunteer (I.e. "league" ball), in many cases he's a babysitter and sometimes no more educated than the Team Mom.

You'd never catch me dead "coaching" a high-school game (V, JV, F, whatever) or a Select league game ... or even A-level tourneys.
But in league ball, I bet I've "taught" the coach what obstruction is and "taught" the first baseman not to stand on that bag admiring the triple the batter just hit 100 times a season... some coaches and players more than once!

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by cookie

"...What particular BR rule do you use?..."

Babe Ruth has in place for all divisions the "Contact Rule":

"If a runner attempting to to reach home plate intentionally and maliciously runs into a defensive player in the area of home plate, he will be called out on the play and ejected from the game. The objective of this is to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner for the obvious purpose of crashing the defensive player, rather than trying to reach home plate. Obviously this is an umpire's judgement call (emphasis mine)."

In the OP, obviously HTBT, a decision has to be made by PU whether it was accidental or deliberate. Also, even it there were no play going on at the plate as in the OP, the runner should be ejcted if he were trying to "crash the catcher." However, I'm a little stuck on whether to score the run or not since there was no actual play at the plate (which appears to be required by the contact rule: "on the play"). I'd probably not record the out and score the run.

Babe Ruth is obviously trying to keep kids from emulating MLB collisions at the plate...

You emphasized the wrong thing. I corrected it. Now what?

[Rich Ives]

Bottom line for some seems to be it's OK to play in the street because it's the car's fault if you get hit.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Bottom line for some seems to be it's OK to play in the street because it's the car's fault if you get hit.

I don't get the analogy. Seems to me like some are saying it is not our job to tell you not to play in the street because you might get run over by a car.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Bottom line for some seems to be it's OK to play in the street because it's the car's fault if you get hit.

?

An umpire enforces the penalties when rules are broken. As others have suggested, an umpire who tells a player to get out of the way, pick up a bat, don't apply a tag so hard is being an OOO. You create an advantage for one team when you influence the outcome of a play. I am reminded of a partner who bit off a bit more than he could chew during a college game a few years ago. The first baseman was a goon. He spit on the feet of runners leading off first. If a guy would slide back on a pick off attempt, he would slap the mitt down hard enough to cause tempers to flare. He loved it. A partner thought he could handle this player through 'preventive umpring'. vefore the game he told him to behave and not slap the mitt on opposing players. After the first time he did it, my partner casually warned him that he wouldn't allow him to keep doing it. An inning or two later the guy slapped the mitt hard on the diving runner's helmet. My partner told him that if he did that again he was going to be ejected. The next pick off saw the fielder slap his mitt hard into the runner's midsection instead. My partner fumed and the fielder smirked knowingly. From then on, he slapped hard tags to different parts of the runner.

Enforce the rules, no need to coach.

[spiritump]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Bottom line for some seems to be it's OK to play in the street because it's the car's fault if you get hit.

how would you feel if a ump told you how to coach??? coaches coach
umps ump and players play--that is the way it is.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Bottom line for some seems to be it's OK to play in the street because it's the car's fault if you get hit.

Pretty close, Rich. I'm not being paid to tell players where to stand.

[MrUmpire]

+1