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Old Mon Apr 18, 2011, 12:58pm
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Thanks and another one from this weekend

First, thank you for your patience in helping me understand, and hopefully coach, the rules of baseball better. Your efforts are appreciated.

Had a situation this weekend coaching 12U. R1, no outs. Hard grounder hit to 3B who throws to 2B to start the double play (full disclosure, my kid was the 2B). 2B fields the ball while tagging the bag to force the runner then, as he transitions to throwing, gets his legs taken out by a sliding R1. The throw has nothing on it as a result and no out is recorded on the BR.

I didn't think anything of it at first as it looked like a MLB play and take out slide (R1 was in the baseline between 1st and 2nd, and maintained contact with 2B, but his momentum carried him past the front of the bag into the fielder who had set up on the back side of the base). I started thinking about contact between runners and catchers who had the ball (mainly that runners are not allowed to bowl through catchers who had the ball like they do in MLB), though, and asked for time to discuss it with the BU. The PU came and and said it was his call and he considered it a continuation of the play and nothing more. I was ok with that and we moved on.

Reading NFHS today I found the following:

8-4-2 - Any runner is out when he: (b) does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases

That then leads me to 2-32-2 definition of an illegal slide: the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder

R1 was still in contact with the base when contact was made so I don't think it met the criteria for being an illegal slide, therefore there was nothing here beyond a typical baseball play. I wanted to check with you all to make sure I'm interpreting that correctly, however. I know there are special contact rules below OBR, mostly for catchers, but can't seem to find anything that would apply in this situation.

Thanks in advance.
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2011, 01:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
First, thank you for your patience in helping me understand, and hopefully coach, the rules of baseball better. Your efforts are appreciated.

Had a situation this weekend coaching 12U. R1, no outs. Hard grounder hit to 3B who throws to 2B to start the double play (full disclosure, my kid was the 2B). 2B fields the ball while tagging the bag to force the runner then, as he transitions to throwing, gets his legs taken out by a sliding R1. The throw has nothing on it as a result and no out is recorded on the BR.

I didn't think anything of it at first as it looked like a MLB play and take out slide (R1 was in the baseline between 1st and 2nd, and maintained contact with 2B, but his momentum carried him past the front of the bag into the fielder who had set up on the back side of the base). I started thinking about contact between runners and catchers who had the ball (mainly that runners are not allowed to bowl through catchers who had the ball like they do in MLB), though, and asked for time to discuss it with the BU. The PU came and and said it was his call and he considered it a continuation of the play and nothing more. I was ok with that and we moved on.

Reading NFHS today I found the following:

8-4-2 - Any runner is out when he: (b) does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases

That then leads me to 2-32-2 definition of an illegal slide: the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder

R1 was still in contact with the base when contact was made so I don't think it met the criteria for being an illegal slide, therefore there was nothing here beyond a typical baseball play. I wanted to check with you all to make sure I'm interpreting that correctly, however. I know there are special contact rules below OBR, mostly for catchers, but can't seem to find anything that would apply in this situation.

Thanks in advance.
I would have 2 outs, given that your sitch is a HTBT. However, the rule cited is not the one that matters. R1 cannot be out for this per the rule you cited... as R1 is already out.
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2011, 01:22pm
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I think the answer depends on what rule set was being applied. Under FED, that definitely could (HTBT) be called interference and you get two outs. I'm not sure that it would be the same result if using OBR, which typically is used (subject to some modification) by Pony Leagues, which this sounds like it was.
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2011, 01:23pm
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Assuming that NFHS is the correct rules set for this play (many 12U games are played under some modification of OBR, and that modification *might* include the NFHS Force Play Slide Rule), then:

1) if R1 slid past the base and THEN made contact with F4 (that is, if the contact was first beyond the base, in the "baseline extended"), it's a violation. The BR is out and other runners return.

2) if the contact was first on or over the base (and the slide was otherwise legal), then the play was legal, even if R1 continues past the base and / or the cotact continues past the base.
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2011, 01:24pm
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What rule set...it matters. If you are are playing under HS rules then you have a case (if contact was made on the far side of the bag). A legal slide, on the bag contact is OK under FED.

12U you could be LL or other modified OBR (Pony, etc). Under straight LL or OBR seems like a good play if the slide was legal and nothing you post makes it seem like it wasn't.
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2011, 01:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
First, thank you for your patience in helping me understand, and hopefully coach, the rules of baseball better. Your efforts are appreciated.

Had a situation this weekend coaching 12U. R1, no outs. Hard grounder hit to 3B who throws to 2B to start the double play (full disclosure, my kid was the 2B). 2B fields the ball while tagging the bag to force the runner then, as he transitions to throwing, gets his legs taken out by a sliding R1. The throw has nothing on it as a result and no out is recorded on the BR.

I didn't think anything of it at first as it looked like a MLB play and take out slide (R1 was in the baseline between 1st and 2nd, and maintained contact with 2B, but his momentum carried him past the front of the bag into the fielder who had set up on the back side of the base). I started thinking about contact between runners and catchers who had the ball (mainly that runners are not allowed to bowl through catchers who had the ball like they do in MLB), though, and asked for time to discuss it with the BU. The PU came and and said it was his call and he considered it a continuation of the play and nothing more. I was ok with that and we moved on.

Reading NFHS today I found the following:

8-4-2 - Any runner is out when he: (b) does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases

That then leads me to 2-32-2 definition of an illegal slide: the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder

R1 was still in contact with the base when contact was made so I don't think it met the criteria for being an illegal slide, therefore there was nothing here beyond a typical baseball play. I wanted to check with you all to make sure I'm interpreting that correctly, however. I know there are special contact rules below OBR, mostly for catchers, but can't seem to find anything that would apply in this situation.

Thanks in advance.
Your bolding of "does not legally slide" implies that perhaps you believe that means he must slide, which he does not. Better you should bold "and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play."
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Old Mon Apr 18, 2011, 03:00pm
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Originally Posted by MrUmpire View Post
Your bolding of "does not legally slide" implies that perhaps you believe that means he must slide, which he does not. Better you should bold "and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play."
Thank you all for the replies and the confirmation that this was a baseball play and probably nothing more.

MrUmp - my bolding was more of a segue to the next definition that I found for legal/illegal slide. I couldn't locate one for illegal contact and agree that would be more relevent, hence my original request for clarification from you all.

Since this was an independent tournament I don't think the rule set was clearly established (and shame on me for not clarifying up front). I had a NFHS rule book handy which is the only reason I quoted that (and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Fed attempts to be more protective of player health than other rule sets - if there is nothing under Fed then I'm thinking none of the other rule sets would have anything either).
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