over rule or not

[cookie]

Kylejt wrote: "...On a play like this, the manager needs to do his job. He needs to go to the PU, ask what he had, and if he'd get help from the BU on the call..."

A similar incident like this happened to me last week in a JV game. I'm in the C pos. with a runner on 3rd. F1 pitches into the dirt; ball bounces into the batter's leg, then bounces off the catcher past him. R3 runs home. PU makes no call only indicating that R3is safe at the plate. (I thought I definitely saw a pitch hit the ground and then hit the batter, but I remained silent.) Defensive coach asks the PU "Wasn't that a dead ball?" Asks him twice before PU comes out to me. PU tells me that the ball hit the ground first. I told him that it doesn't matter; the ball hit the batter directly after hitting the ground. It's still HBP. PU took my information, then directed the batter to first and returned the runner back to 3rd. Play on...

[bob jenkins]

If you offer unsolicited help on some of the plays mentioned here, you might as well "vote" on every call.

Some calls (including most "rule mistakes") get unsolicited help. Some don't. Some can't be changed even if help is sought. Knowing when to do what (as either the calling umpire or the non-calling umpire) is part of the art of umpiring.

The NCAA book privides some good guidance here.

On the OP -- if I don't know why PU kept the runner at the plate, I let it go. Maybe he judged the batter moved into the pitch (that's a judgement call). If I hear that he kept the batter there because "the ball bounced", then it becomes a rules issue and I'm far more likely to go in.

[MikeStrybel]

Bob, kick this one around:

No one on, one out. Batter swings at the pitch and the ball goes down, rolling fifteen feet or so to where the F5 (playing in) grabs it in fair territory. PU IMMEDIATELY signals fair and takes a step or two towards the ball. F5 makes the throw to F3. The batter is hopping up and down on one foot and the HC is declaring that the ball was foul, off the batter's foot while in the box. You see the batter's reaction and had watched the ball hit the his foot, or at least the best you could see from 100+ feet away. Your PU gave an adamant signal IMMEDIATELY. Do you kill the play? Do you wait for him to ask your help? Agree with him or give what you had?

Admittedly, a foul is a quick, fairly easy call for a BU to assist on. However, this play involves a PU who IMMEDIATELY points fair (yes, waiting for a touch or stoppage is the correct mechanic but not in play here). Do you interject?

[jophyal]

Mike,
Did you see the ball hit batter's foot before BU called "fair"?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Do you interject?

If I see it, I kill it. If I don't kill it, I didn't see it (so don't come to me for help).

This is a call, like balks, infield fly, check swing, with joint responsibility. If either umpire sees it, get it.

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If I see it, I kill it. If I don't kill it, I didn't see it (so don't come to me for help).

This is a call, like balks, infield fly, check swing, with joint responsibility. If either umpire sees it, get it.

Exactly, great advice. Make the call based on what you see and know happened. Leave everything else to your partner(s) to make the call(s) as they saw them.

Thanks
David

[Simply The Best]

No one on, one out. Batter swings at the pitch and the ball goes down, rolling fifteen feet or so to where the F5 (playing in) grabs it in fair territory. PU IMMEDIATELY signals fair and takes a step or two towards the ball. F5 makes the throw to F3. The batter is hopping up and down on one foot and the HC is declaring that the ball was foul, off the batter's foot while in the box. You see the batter's reaction and had watched the ball hit the his foot, or at least the best you could see from 100+ feet away. Your PU gave an adamant signal IMMEDIATELY. Do you kill the play? Do you wait for him to ask your help? Agree with him or give what you had?

Admittedly, a foul is a quick, fairly easy call for a BU to assist on. However, this play involves a PU who IMMEDIATELY points fair (yes, waiting for a touch or stoppage is the correct mechanic but not in play here). Do you interject?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If I see it, I kill it. If I don't kill it, I didn't see it (so don't come to me for help).

This is a call, like balks, infield fly, check swing, with joint responsibility. If either umpire sees it, get it.

Which is exactly my point. Any call where one official has a clear advantage in seeing the call, especially where his partner may be blocked, hindered or otherwise impeded in making the call, that official with the clearer review, who knows that his partner has made an incorrect call, has the ethical responsibility to inform his partner of the mistake. I don't care how he does this. Signals, T/O, spins on his head, he has to get the info to his partner.

If his partner refuses to correct, for whatever reason, then that is on his shoulders, his lack of integrity and his lack of responsibility as an arbiter.

You have done all you could.

Oh, except tell your assignor you won't call with that sleezeball ever again.

[MD Longhorn]

Refusing to "correct" your partner is absolutely not a lack of integrity. I totally get you if there's a RULES misinterpretation involved. But when we're talking about judgment calls (fair/foul... or in this case did or did not hit the batter) if I, from 100 feet away, THINK the player was hit by the ball, and partner behaves as you explain, I'm showing my integrity by not killing the play and assuming that my partner is doing this for a reason.

In fact, the fact that signalling fair BEFORE the ball stops is very much NOT the normal mechanic... I'm assuming that my partner doing so is SPECIFICALLY because he is positive in his call and has reason to believe I MIGHT kill this play - and is trying to keep me from doing so.

Like I said - I would definitely be discussing this play after the game, and in fact it's unusual enough that I MIGHT come in between innings - a rarity without reason, if for no other reason to find out what he saw.

STB ... let me ask this. Say a pitch is a good foot outside, but your partner calls it a strike. Are you going to stop play and go correct him?

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Refusing to "correct" your partner is absolutely not a lack of integrity.

Refusing to tell your partner he was wrong on a play call that can be corrected, and should be corrected, when you know he is most assuredly is. It is a lie and fraud by omission.

STB ... let me ask this. Say a pitch is a good foot outside, but your partner calls it a strike. Are you going to stop play and go correct him?

over rule or not
Balls and strikes are not play calls, did you not know that?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

No one on, one out. Batter swings at the pitch and the ball goes down, rolling fifteen feet or so to where the F5 (playing in) grabs it in fair territory. PU IMMEDIATELY signals fair and takes a step or two towards the ball. F5 makes the throw to F3. The batter is hopping up and down on one foot and the HC is declaring that the ball was foul, off the batter's foot while in the box. You see the batter's reaction and had watched the ball hit the his foot, or at least the best you could see from 100+ feet away. Your PU gave an adamant signal IMMEDIATELY. Do you kill the play? Do you wait for him to ask your help? Agree with him or give what you had?

OK I will play along.

For the record there is a procedure to call these plays. And as a BU if you see a batted ball hit the batter immediately, the procedure you should apply is to make a ruling that the ball is dead. Now it is up to the PU to ultimately decide what we are going to ultimately call. And if you have nothing, then you call nothing.

And that is the "procedure" I have pretty much followed my entire career and most trained umpires follow as well.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Admittedly, a foul is a quick, fairly easy call for a BU to assist on. However, this play involves a PU who IMMEDIATELY points fair (yes, waiting for a touch or stoppage is the correct mechanic but not in play here). Do you interject?

Which is exactly my point. Any call where one official has a clear advantage in seeing the call, especially where his partner may be blocked, hindered or otherwise impeded in making the call, that official with the clearer review, who knows that his partner has made an incorrect call, has the ethical responsibility to inform his partner of the mistake. I don't care how he does this. Signals, T/O, spins on his head, he has to get the info to his partner.

One can assume that the PU is making a call based where the ball became fair, whether the ball hit the batter. So the signal does not change the responsibility of the PU or the BU in this specific case. And when you try to make this into an ethical issue, it either shows you do not understand typical training or you are playing stupid.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

If his partner refuses to correct, for whatever reason, then that is on his shoulders, his lack of integrity and his lack of responsibility as an arbiter.

You have done all you could.

Oh, except tell your assignor you won't call with that sleezeball ever again.

Again you are so wrong again. First you are using a situation that is widely has a procedure for any umpire on the field to call the play dead when a batted ball hits a batter and certainly immediately when this happens. That is actually the standard procedure to be followed. But you said "Get the call right forget the procedure." So that means that if we have a play at second base and the PU has an opinion they should correct the call to what they think just took place. That is what folks like me object to and feel that there is a way to correct a call. But if you’re correcting a call is if there was a tag, then I do not want to work with you ever again until you get better training. This is the play we are talking about when we say making a call 100 feet away. Just like we do not rule on a checked swing as a BU when the PU has either made a call or has not asked for an appeal. Then again something tells me this will not sink in to you either.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Bob, kick this one around:

No one on, one out. Batter swings at the pitch and the ball goes down, rolling fifteen feet or so to where the F5 (playing in) grabs it in fair territory. PU IMMEDIATELY signals fair and takes a step or two towards the ball. F5 makes the throw to F3. The batter is hopping up and down on one foot and the HC is declaring that the ball was foul, off the batter's foot while in the box. You see the batter's reaction and had watched the ball hit the his foot, or at least the best you could see from 100+ feet away. Your PU gave an adamant signal IMMEDIATELY. Do you kill the play? Do you wait for him to ask your help? Agree with him or give what you had?

Admittedly, a foul is a quick, fairly easy call for a BU to assist on. However, this play involves a PU who IMMEDIATELY points fair (yes, waiting for a touch or stoppage is the correct mechanic but not in play here). Do you interject?

Well ... I'm 100 feet away, he's right there and making a rather emphatic call - I'm assuming he has reason to do so. If he asks me for input, I'll tell him what I saw. While it LOOKS to me like it hit the batter, he's closer and he's obviously being firm for a reason. Perhaps the ball hit a funky part of the ground in the batters box causing the weird bounce... I don't know. I'm definitely asking in the locker room... but there's no WAY I'm interjecting my 100-feet away judgement in a case like this.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well ... I'm 100 feet away, he's right there and making a rather emphatic call - I'm assuming he has reason to do so. If he asks me for input, I'll tell him what I saw. While it LOOKS to me like it hit the batter, he's closer and he's obviously being firm for a reason. Perhaps the ball hit a funky part of the ground in the batters box causing the weird bounce... I don't know. I'm definitely asking in the locker room... but there's no WAY I'm interjecting my 100-feet away judgement in a case like this.

Thanks, Mike. I offered this play as an example of one umpire seeing something that his partner doesn't but is in jeopardy if he interjects without appeal - thus "over ruling" the PU. (not a fan of the term)

Ideally, the play would have been ruled foul immediately by the BU; he then listens to the HC complain about how that call can be made from so far away when the partner is mere feet from it. (The same coach will ask BU to call a half swing from there though!) The PU should have never signalled fair on a ball that's still rolling either. Fun stuff we get to see.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Bob, kick this one around:

No one on, one out. Batter swings at the pitch and the ball goes down, rolling fifteen feet or so to where the F5 (playing in) grabs it in fair territory. PU IMMEDIATELY signals fair and takes a step or two towards the ball. F5 makes the throw to F3. The batter is hopping up and down on one foot and the HC is declaring that the ball was foul, off the batter's foot while in the box. You see the batter's reaction and had watched the ball hit the his foot, or at least the best you could see from 100+ feet away. Your PU gave an adamant signal IMMEDIATELY. Do you kill the play? Do you wait for him to ask your help? Agree with him or give what you had?

Been there, done that. Both ways. Bob is exactly correct here.

Seen the ball clearly go off of Batter, I take two steps in, wait for partner to react and kill the play. You kill it quick, loudly and confidently and never, not once, has it been questioned.

Also, did not clearly see the ball hit the batter and neither did PU but you immeadiately have a dancing batter in front of you. Use some judgement man. Only seen Derek Jeter last year fake getting hit by the ball and he makes a living trying to get on base. Your average ballplayer is not going to jump around like a kangaroo unless he gets hit. And yes, I have even seen batters get hit and take off for first, theres an easy out on a dumb ball player.

In a perfect game if you have to go to your partner 2-3 times during the game, your going to take crap. There is no carte blanc method that works perfectly. Just look at MLB. There is a fine line between knowing when to act like an arrogant arse and when to act like a well groomed team. If you both work to get your own calls right and communicate only when necessary your going to look like the latter. There is no black and whte answer here.

Just remember though, when you, or your partner screw up, you both look bad.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you offer unsolicited help on some of the plays mentioned here, you might as well "vote" on every call.

That's bull Bob and you know it. It is not what I said over and over again at all.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

That's bull Bob and you know it. It is not what I said over and over again at all.

You said in so many words, "Get it right forget procedures." So what are you saying if we are not to follow a procedure as to how a call is made? Either you do not have the integrity to say that is not what you meant or you do not have to ability to clarify your position.

Peace