"Tie goes to the runner"

[TwoBits]

I was the one who posted the recent "Rules Myths" update on here, and every year at this time I'm trying to improve it.

I've been thinking about the myth in the title of this post and if I've really explained it to the letter of the rule:

Tie goes to the runner. FALSE. It doesn’t go to the fielders, either. The umpire must judge either the runner beating the throw or the throw beating the runner. Ties do not exist.

All the vets are familiar with the wording of OBR rule 7.08e:

Any runner is out when...He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

FED uses similar wording.

The wording "is tagged BEFORE he touches the next base" has been widely interpretted as "Tie goes to the runner".

Is this the correct interpretation, vets?

Granted, in my last umpteen years of officiating, I have never judged a tie, and doubt that I ever will. However, should the "myth" in the title really be considered a myth?

[Ump153]

There's no tie in baseball. Umpires make decisions.

[JohnDorian37]

i agree with both of the above. if it LOOKS like a tie, then one would rule the ball didn't beat the runner to the bag, and therefore the runner is safe.

but it's never ACTUALLY a tie. you're talking about two random events, and the probability that they happen at EXACTLY the same time is zero.

[UmpJM]

John,

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

i agree with both of the above. if it LOOKS like a tie, then one would rule the ball didn't beat the runner to the bag, and therefore the runner is safe.

That is entirely incorrect.

Now you're kinda' new, so you can be excused.

TwoBits has been around long enough that he should simply know better, and he has NO excuse and should be ashamed of himself. Plus, I thought we already covered this, TwoBits. Weren't you paying attention?

...but it's never ACTUALLY a tie. you're talking about two random events, and the probability that they happen at EXACTLY the same time is zero.

Again, entirely incorrect. For your "penance" (and edification, of course) read the following thread. Yep, the whole damn thing. All 135 posts. Then you'll never make this mistake again.

Rules Myths Part 1

You're welcome.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

but it's never ACTUALLY a tie. you're talking about two random events, and the probability that they happen at EXACTLY the same time is zero.

I don't know what makes an event "random," but simultaneity is possible within the time frame of human perception. Events occurring within about .04 seconds of each other are not discriminable by the human eye.

At the level of quantum physics, you run into uncertainty effects, and so have no physical basis on which to say that simultaneity is (physically) impossible.

[bob jenkins]

The FED wording and the OBR wording are, I think different.

I know that OBR had the literal reading of "safe" on BR at first and "out" on other forced runners (or the other way around). They changed it a couple of years ago so that "safe" is the correct "test answer" on any tie.

In the real world, call what you see and don't see a tie.

[jicecone]

Then there is the theory that if you hear the smack of the glove at the instant you see the touch of the bag, and because sound travels slower than light, and because as already stated "Events occurring within about .04 seconds of each other are not discriminable by the human eye........and yadi yadi yada....................

I still have an out.

[rcaverly]

I was taught early on that "whackers" are outs.

Scientifically, watching (at the speed of light) the BR's foot hit 1B and hearing (at the speed of sound) the ball hit the glove are events happening at two very different speeds, and if they are received by you at the precisely the same time, then the ball hit the glove first...the BR is out.

[rcaverly]

jicecone types at the speed of light; I, at the speed of sound.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by rcaverly

jicecone types at the speed of light; I, at the speed of sound.

rcaverly,

Regardless, I am sure Sir Isaac would be proud of you both!

And I don't think he even played baseball.

Nice to see some umpires understand the rules.

JM

[jicecone]

Hey! DON"T EVER ACCUSE ME OF HAND-PECKING THE KEYS QUICKLY.

Actually, is was truly one event happening before another because two fingers, (one from each hand) pressing keys, will never be construed as typing.

But thanks for the compliment anyway.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

John,



That is entirely incorrect.

Now you're kinda' new, so you can be excused.

TwoBits has been around long enough that he should simply know better, and he has NO excuse and should be ashamed of himself. Plus, I thought we already covered this, TwoBits. Weren't you paying attention?



Again, entirely incorrect. For your "penance" (and edification, of course) read the following thread. Yep, the whole damn thing. All 135 posts. Then you'll never make this mistake again.

Rules Myths Part 1

You're welcome.

JM

So what you are saying is, "Quit overthinking it, and call it the same way you've been calling it for umpteen years."

I can live with that.

And before I inadvertently start another 135 post message, will a moderator please lock this thread? Thanks.

[UmpJM]

TwoBits,

Now that you have regained your senses, I would like to "take back" those nasty things I said about you above.

JM

[BSUmp16]

First - those who say "there are no ties in baseball" are simply reciting a platitude. There are ties everywhere in the known universe and the laws of physics do not cease to exist on the baseball diamond.

In every instance involving 2 different events there are 3 different things that could happen: A occurs before B; A occurs after B; A and B occur at the same time (a tie). Even though there are 3 possibilities, the rules of baseball give you, as an umpire, only 2 choices: safe or out. In THAT sense, there are no ties in baseball.

However, if you define a "tie" as the equivalent of "too close to call", an ESPN study determined that in MLB there is, on average, at least 1 play every 6 games that is too close to call even with the aid of instant replay!

So while you can argue whether the OBR states that ties go to the runner (it does), and you can disagree on how to make the practical decision on the field when a play is too close to call, it is indisputable that there are ties (plays too close to call) in baseball.

As proof positive, check out the last 40 seconds of this video:

YouTube - Goofy "How To Play Baseball"

[ozzy6900]

Tell me why we are still debating this "Tie goes to the runner" for the 4th time since last season? Every year we deal with this idiotic myth yet it keeps coming around like a boil on your butt!

There are no ties in baseball because all ties go to the umpire and the umpire always calls the out!