"Tie goes to the runner"

[JohnDorian37]

i agree with both of the above. if it LOOKS like a tie, then one would rule the ball didn't beat the runner to the bag, and therefore the runner is safe.

but it's never ACTUALLY a tie. you're talking about two random events, and the probability that they happen at EXACTLY the same time is zero.

[UmpJM]

John,

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

i agree with both of the above. if it LOOKS like a tie, then one would rule the ball didn't beat the runner to the bag, and therefore the runner is safe.

That is entirely incorrect.

Now you're kinda' new, so you can be excused.

TwoBits has been around long enough that he should simply know better, and he has NO excuse and should be ashamed of himself. Plus, I thought we already covered this, TwoBits. Weren't you paying attention?

...but it's never ACTUALLY a tie. you're talking about two random events, and the probability that they happen at EXACTLY the same time is zero.

Again, entirely incorrect. For your "penance" (and edification, of course) read the following thread. Yep, the whole damn thing. All 135 posts. Then you'll never make this mistake again.

Rules Myths Part 1

You're welcome.

JM

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

John,



That is entirely incorrect.

Now you're kinda' new, so you can be excused.

TwoBits has been around long enough that he should simply know better, and he has NO excuse and should be ashamed of himself. Plus, I thought we already covered this, TwoBits. Weren't you paying attention?



Again, entirely incorrect. For your "penance" (and edification, of course) read the following thread. Yep, the whole damn thing. All 135 posts. Then you'll never make this mistake again.

Rules Myths Part 1

You're welcome.

JM

So what you are saying is, "Quit overthinking it, and call it the same way you've been calling it for umpteen years."

I can live with that.

And before I inadvertently start another 135 post message, will a moderator please lock this thread? Thanks.

[UmpJM]

TwoBits,

Now that you have regained your senses, I would like to "take back" those nasty things I said about you above.

JM

[BSUmp16]

First - those who say "there are no ties in baseball" are simply reciting a platitude. There are ties everywhere in the known universe and the laws of physics do not cease to exist on the baseball diamond.

In every instance involving 2 different events there are 3 different things that could happen: A occurs before B; A occurs after B; A and B occur at the same time (a tie). Even though there are 3 possibilities, the rules of baseball give you, as an umpire, only 2 choices: safe or out. In THAT sense, there are no ties in baseball.

However, if you define a "tie" as the equivalent of "too close to call", an ESPN study determined that in MLB there is, on average, at least 1 play every 6 games that is too close to call even with the aid of instant replay!

So while you can argue whether the OBR states that ties go to the runner (it does), and you can disagree on how to make the practical decision on the field when a play is too close to call, it is indisputable that there are ties (plays too close to call) in baseball.

As proof positive, check out the last 40 seconds of this video:

YouTube - Goofy "How To Play Baseball"

[ozzy6900]

Tell me why we are still debating this "Tie goes to the runner" for the 4th time since last season? Every year we deal with this idiotic myth yet it keeps coming around like a boil on your butt!

There are no ties in baseball because all ties go to the umpire and the umpire always calls the out!

[UmpJM]

ozzy,

It's kind of like herpes. It may go "dormant" for awhile, but there's always the risk it will "flare up" again.

JM

[IowaMike]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Tell me why we are still debating this "Tie goes to the runner" for the 4th time since last season? Every year we deal with this idiotic myth yet it keeps coming around like a boil on your butt!

There are no ties in baseball because all ties go to the umpire and the umpire always calls the out!

If a play is that close I call them out. I had a varsity coach tell me a story last year about an older veteran umpire who worked one of their games. There was a banger at first and the ump called the runner out. The first base coach said "C'mon, tie goes to the runner." The ump told him "You've been horribly misinformed son, ties go to the umpire and I called him out." The first base coach busted out laughing. Some coaches do actually have a sense of humor.

[Chris Viverito]

Tie goes to the umpire.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Tell me why we are still debating this "Tie goes to the runner" for the 4th time since last season? Every year we deal with this idiotic myth yet it keeps coming around like a boil on your butt!

There are no ties in baseball because all ties go to the umpire and the umpire always calls the out!

Exactly. There are ties...we just don't call them ties, we call them "outs."

It always reminds me of a story an umpire associate used to tell about this guy who had a banger at 1st base and called, "Two!!!" really loudly. When the puzzled 1st base coach asked what he meant by "Two!!!" the umpire told him, "too damn close to call!"

[Chris Viverito]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

First - those who say "there are no ties in baseball" are simply reciting a platitude. There are ties everywhere in the known universe and the laws of physics do not cease to exist on the baseball diamond.

In every instance involving 2 different events there are 3 different things that could happen: A occurs before B; A occurs after B; A and B occur at the same time (a tie). Even though there are 3 possibilities, the rules of baseball give you, as an umpire, only 2 choices: safe or out. In THAT sense, there are no ties in baseball.

However, if you define a "tie" as the equivalent of "too close to call", an ESPN study determined that in MLB there is, on average, at least 1 play every 6 games that is too close to call even with the aid of instant replay!

So while you can argue whether the OBR states that ties go to the runner (it does), and you can disagree on how to make the practical decision on the field when a play is too close to call, it is indisputable that there are ties (plays too close to call) in baseball.

As proof positive, check out the last 40 seconds of this video:

YouTube - Goofy "How To Play Baseball"

All this specificity. All this detail. All this predicate logic. Impressive.

Are you sure that "OBR states that ties go to the runner "?

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by Chris Viverito

All this specificity. All this detail. All this predicate logic. Impressive.

Are you sure that "OBR states that ties go to the runner "?

Yep - 6.05j. Runner or base has to be tagged before the runner touches first base for an out. If the runner and tag/touch occur "at the same time" (a "tie") then the tag/touch didn't occur before = runner's safe.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

but it's never ACTUALLY a tie. you're talking about two random events, and the probability that they happen at EXACTLY the same time is zero.

I don't know what makes an event "random," but simultaneity is possible within the time frame of human perception. Events occurring within about .04 seconds of each other are not discriminable by the human eye.

At the level of quantum physics, you run into uncertainty effects, and so have no physical basis on which to say that simultaneity is (physically) impossible.

[bob jenkins]

The FED wording and the OBR wording are, I think different.

I know that OBR had the literal reading of "safe" on BR at first and "out" on other forced runners (or the other way around). They changed it a couple of years ago so that "safe" is the correct "test answer" on any tie.

In the real world, call what you see and don't see a tie.

[jicecone]

Then there is the theory that if you hear the smack of the glove at the instant you see the touch of the bag, and because sound travels slower than light, and because as already stated "Events occurring within about .04 seconds of each other are not discriminable by the human eye........and yadi yadi yada....................

I still have an out.